Time to Payoff

Irvine doesn’t have any great cashflow properties. Today’s is cashflow positive, but it is still have to believe in appreciation to pay these prices for small condos.

228 Orange Blossom 34 Irvine, CA 92618

Address: 228 Orange Blossom 34 Irvine, CA 92618
Asking Price: $130,000

I’m givin’ up, on everything
Because you messed me up
Don’t know how much you
Screwed it up
You never listened
That’s just too bad
Because I’m moving on
I won’t forget
You were the one that was wrong

Forgotten — Avril Lavigne

Investment wisdom of yesteryear has been forgotten. People started drinking kool aid and convinced themselves they can make and spend a fortune through real estate appreciation alone. They were wrong. This mistake caused The Great Housing Bubble, and the result is foreclosure, ruined credit and even bankruptcy. Most have not learned this lesson yet.


Time to Payoff

When people examine investments, they often look at rates of return to compare between asset classes. Rates of return are a valuable metric. When thinking about retirement finance, rates of return become less important than steady cashflow. We need a new measure of success for reaching your retirement goals: Time to Payoff. The Time-to-Payoff is the amount of time it takes to retire the debt used to acquire the asset (house). It is a handy tool of those who use Accelerated Amortization.

Today, I want to look at another feature of cashflow investing: debt retirement. In Real Estate, Cashflow Investment and Retirement I noted, “… you can take the excess rent and put it toward the mortgage paying off the debt more quickly. Remember, the goal is to have maximum free cashflow in retirement, so you want to pay off those debts.” Retiring debt is part of the cashflow investment mindset; it is diametrically opposed to speculation.Biggest Saver

Paying off debt is as difficult as dieting — there is always a temptation — whether it be spending or eating. The success rates for debt retirement are no better than they are for weight loss. Perhaps we should have a TV Show for the Biggest Saver.

Calculating Time-to-Payoff is a challenge. It requires looking at the available sources of cashflow and the impact the property has on its owner. There is a level of cashflow that can be diverted toward debt service that otherwise does not impact the owner’s life.

For example, if a property is about $600 per month cashflow positive before debt or taxes, the debt service payments can actually be closer to $900 per month before the owner is truly cashflow negative. How can this be? Isn’t paying out $300 a month more in payments making you cashflow negative? Not really. Part of that payment is equity that is paying down debt, so that is not a true expense. The interest will be tax deductible for most wage earners, so the owner can adjust paycheck withholdings to compensate for the difference in payment. In short, the property has no net financial impact on the owner.

If the property is cashflow positive — which it must be for this analysis to work — there will be money that can be put toward debt service. If the maximum available cashflow is put toward debt service, how quickly does the loan amortize? That is Time to Payoff.

If you invest in the Time-to-Payoff way, your property investments will have no impact on your financial life — plus or minus — until you retire. There is no demand on your income to service the investment, and there is no net benefit for you to spend on your lifestyle. Let’s just say, it isn’t a lifestyle alternative many people were choosing during The Great Housing Bubble.


IHB Investor Report

A few weeks ago, we introduced IHB Investor Reports. After reviewing the comments and some further reflection, we have updated our reports to include new features — one of which is the Time-to-Payoff calculation. Today’s featured property is as close to an investor property as I could find here in Irvine. The deal still isn’t very good unless you are betting on appreciation.

One of the changes we made was to run the report based on what we believe to be the most likely transaction price. It does nobody any good to run a report based on an asking price that is either WTF high or so low that you know 20 bids will be over the ask. The comps are what guide short-term pricing.

Another feature we added is a chart showing the impact of different downpayment and interest-rate scenarios. Rather than run multiple financing scenarios, I set up the spreadsheet to automatically run 165 of them and report the results in terms of cash-on-cash rates of return. What you will notice is that low downpayments and low interest rates increase returns at any given price. BTW, you don’t want to know how it is calculated…


IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value — 228 Orange Blossom.pdf

IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value 04 228 Orange Blossom-1

IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value 04 228 Orange Blossom-2

IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value 04 228 Orange Blossom-3

IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value 04 228 Orange Blossom-4

IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value 04 228 Orange Blossom-5

IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value 04 228 Orange Blossom-6

IHB Cashflow Investor Brokers Opinion of Value 04 228 Orange Blossom-7

Getting an IHB Fundamental Value Report

We are up and running and ready to serve. If you want to see an IHB Fundamental Value Report for either your own home or a house you are looking to purchase, you can request a report at our newest navigation stop: Reports. You will be automatically signed up for our introductory emails and our periodic newsletter when you request a report. In order to avoid responding to robot submissions, we will process your
request when we receive confirmation from your email address.

228 Orange Blossom 34 Irvine, CA 92618

Address: 228 Orange Blossom 34 Irvine, CA 92618

Asking Price: $130,000

Income Requirement: $23,927
Downpayment Needed: $26,000

Purchase Price: 62,500
Purchase Date: 10/29/1997

Net Gain (Loss): $59,700
Percent Change: 108.0%
Annual Appreciation: 9.1%

Monthly Payment $673
Monthly Cash Outlays $925
Monthly Cost of Ownership $653

Redfin Property Details for 228 Orange Blossom 34 Irvine, CA 92618

Beds 1
Baths 1 bath
Size 471 sq ft
($276 / sq ft)
Lot Size n/a
Year Built 1976
Days on Market 359
Listing Updated 8/3/2009
MLS Number F1786080
Property Type Condominium, Residential
Community Orangetree
Tract Cm

According to the listing agent, this listing may be a pre-foreclosure or short sale.

Charming end unit. Lower level one bedroom with full bathroom and kitchen. Inside laundry. Living room and patio area overlooking water stream and soothing sounds of a waterfall. 1 car port. Association has pool, spa, tennis courts and clubhouse. Excellent location next door to Irvine Valley College. Near 5 and 405 Freeways, Irvine Spectrum Entertainment Center, Business District, Shopping. Located in Building # 12.

54 thoughts on “Time to Payoff

  1. cara

    Years to retire debt at maximum payment. That is a great metric. Love it. Love the graphs too.

    24.1 years. yikes. Only worth it if you’re starting building your rental empire very early in life.

    I do think most landlords will be more optimisitic in terms of rent increases over the years. Taxes* and maintanence costs will also increase with inflation, so it’s a question of whether the rent increases fast enough to exceed that, or if it will fall behind eventually.

    So this makes the 24 years more of a benchmark. Still only 6 years faster than the straight 30 year amoritization isn’t a lot of cushion.

    *especially important to consider outside of CA where prop 13 mitigates the increases.

  2. granite

    Last time I owned a house I paid almost 8% interest. That puts this place under 100K. Not a good feeling even if it is cash flow positive.

    Let the frenzied buyers of today have it.

      1. awgee

        Good Plan. Your plan is pretty much the opposite of the general consensus. And you know what I think of the general consensus.

        1. Geotpf

          Wouldn’t it depend on whether or not you were paying cash or not? If you were paying cash, it makes sense, IMHO, to buy when interest rates are high (assuming prices are therefore low). But if you are taking out a loan, buying when interest rates are low makes sense. You can always refinance later when rates drop again, but you pay the higher interest in the mean time, plus there are transaction costs in a refi which eat up some of your initial savings.

          Of course, the best time to buy is when prices and interest rates are both low (like right now).

          1. IrvineRenter

            It isn’t clear to me that you fully understand the relationship between interest rates and property pricing.

            People are going to put a certain number of dollars toward housing costs. If interest rates are high, most of this money goes toward interest, so the amount financed is small. If the loan is small, prices are low. Prices are only as high as bids permit them to get.

            If interest rates are low, few of the housing dollars go toward interest, so the amount financed is very large. If the loan is large, prices are high because people can raise their bids.

            What awgee and I are looking for is the period of time when the amounts financed are small because relative to incomes this is when prices are the most depressed. When interest rates are very low like they are now, prices become way too high relative to incomes. I am of the belief that mortgage interest rates will move higher because of medium term inflation, fears of long-term inflation, proper pricing of default loss risk, and other factors in the market that would dictate higher interest rates than we face today.

            The way to purchase and finance a home is to buy at the peak of the credit cycle when interest rates are very high — prices will be at their lowest relative to incomes. Refinance when interest rates are at their low in the cycle and accelerate your amortization. If you time this properly, you can pay off a mortgage in 15 years relatively easy — much faster if you are fiscally conservative and focus on paying off the debt.

          2. awgee

            Prices are not low right now. And just repeating a falsehood does not make it so.

            It is best to buy when interest rates are high if you are paying cash. And it is best to buy when interest rates are high if you are financing because you can refinance to a lower interest rate. You can not refinance your principal. this is exactly the opposite of what most people will do, but then that is why most people will slug along their whole lives just getting by. The folks who get ahead are those will do the opposite of the masses. In this case, IrvineRenter will buy when interest rates are high and prices are low, much lower than they are now. He will have the same payments as someone who bought now when prices are high and interest rates are low. But, as time goes by, his interest rate will decrease, because he is smart and will get a ARM, the opposite of what everyone else will be doing which is a fixed. He will buy at the lows. His property will appreciate much greater than all those who bought now. He will refinace at a lower rate in five or ten years after he buys and he will have a much lower payment than those who buy now when prices are high and interest rates are low.

            No, re prices are not low right now. They are lower than they were, but they are still going lower and will continue to go lower for a long time. Yes, there will alway be knifecatchers and they are the majority. The minority are those like IR who will truly buy at the bottom when no one else is buying. People will no longer be saying, “Now is a good time to buy.” People will be saying, “Now is a terrible time to buy because interest rates are high.” The best times to buy and sell are exactly the opposite of what most people think are the good times to buy and sell.

          3. Geotpf

            I guess again a lot of this is a difference of opinion as to what the future holds. I believe prices are unlikely to drop significantly and might increase; awgee and IR think prices will fall further. Now, I know interest rates can’t go much lower-I think we can agree on that. They probably won’t be this low ever again (within the time period of a 30 year loan).

            Therefore, under my thinking, if prices will probably be stable, and interest rates will probably increase, if you are taking a loan out now is the time to buy, but a cash buyer can wait if they choose to.

            But if you think prices will drop further, it makes sense to wait, period, no matter what happens to interest rates.

          4. SeattleRenter

            I know you are right, and yet I struggle with this quite a bit, because, who knows when the interest rate cycle will be at its peak? Certainly, rates will rise eventually – they have to – but that could be 3, 5, or 8 years from now. Does it really make sense to put life on hold and continue renting during that time?

            My wife and I started looking at insanely priced houses in Seattle a few months ago, but the thought of being trapped in a house for a decade when rates rise is scaring me to death.

          5. bigmoneysalsa

            You consider your life “on hold” because you are renting. Sorry, but I think that’s kinda sad.

          6. Alan

            I’ve never understood the “put your life on hold and continue renting” mindset. I’m renting, and getting along with my life just fine. In fact, I have the freedom to go where life and my interests take me. Being in debt for, and trapped in, a house is to me putting your life on hold.

          7. Perspective

            It’s similar to the mentality that many have about life being “on hold” until someone is married. It’s as if your life is complete once you’re married and “own” a home. Only happiness follows!

            Life is never “on hold.” You will never get today back. You will be one day older tomorrow and one day closer to death.

            Good times…

          8. SeattleRenter

            There’s nothing sad about renting. What’s sad is that I’ve delegently saved a lot of money over my life and I earn a good salary, and yet, I can’t afford a modest house in any area of the country that I want to live without getting into massive amounts of debt.

            What I’d like is a nice yard, a garage, some space to myself, more room, and the freedom to do whatever I want with the place I live. What’s sad is that insane prices are forcing me to put off a decision that my parents were able to make when they were much younger than me and prices made sense.

          9. Geotpf

            Well, part of the issue is that they aren’t making any more land. After an area is built out (supply is stable), but more people continue to want to move there (demand is increasing), prices have to rise. Houses are cheap as dirt in the sticks, because this isn’t a factor.

            Irvine have artifically created this “built out” phenomenon because one corporation basically controls all the vacant land, so they can trickle it out in slow motion to keep prices high.

          10. muzie

            Did you read what he said?

            People bid the max they can based on payment.
            Interest rates go higher, means they can’t finance as much, means they can’t bid as high as the same house.

            It’s not a question of opinions about whether houses will drop further in price.

            You can’t argue that interest rates will rise and bids based on payments wont’ be affected. That doesn’t make sense.

            You COULD argue that people actually don’t bid based on the max payment they can afford, which would invalidate IR’s theory; that could be an interesting point. But if you do accept the relationship that the price of houses correlates with maximum payment people can afford, it’s a given interest rates = lower house prices.

            This isn’t opinion, it’s just basic cartesian logic. You can debate the relationship between these values, but you can’t debate the result if you do accept the relationship.

          11. SacBoomer

            I’ll try to demonstrate. In 1980, with interest at about 17% I got a discounted 14% loan for my first house. I could only buy a home priced at 2X my income, even with 20% down. That worked out to $50,000 purchase with a $10,000 DP. Had I re-financed at a later date, instead of selling, I would have owned it outright in relatively little time. Again you can finance at a more advantageous rate at a later date, but you can’t ask for a lower price after the fact.

          12. MalibuRenter

            ” After an area is built out (supply is stable), but more people continue to want to move there (demand is increasing), prices have to rise. Houses are cheap as dirt in the sticks, because this isn’t a factor.

            Irvine have artifically created this “built out” phenomenon”

            This is a widely held incorrect belief. There are a large number of places in the US where prices have either dropped long term or have dropped once adjusted for inflation. Interestingly, many of the places with stable to slowly dropping prices are growing. Dallas, Atlanta, Houston, Charlotte, etc. did not become bubble unaffordable areas. It’s not a matter of whether people are moving there. It’s a matter of whether building restrictions and lending policies allow a bubble.

          13. Geotpf

            Restrictive zoning laws also artifically create a “built out” situation, encouraging bubbles and higher prices in general.

          14. freerent

            I agree, the way the government is manipulating the system and giving everyone free rent for 2 years to default on their mortgage, and the same people just to to the fha to do it all over again makes me sick.

  3. winstongator

    Why are non-owner-occupied homes given the same mortgage treatment as owner-occupied? Can Fannie/Freddie buy non owner-occ mortgages? Do banks care? Have they back checked foreclosures to see how many that didn’t have 2nd home riders actually were not primary residences?

  4. movingaround

    This is a bit off topic but I still cannot get the calculator to work – when I click edit it says I do not have ‘permission to access this page’. Anybody else having this problem?

    1. zovall

      Hmm.. What browser are you using? Shoot me an email (zovall at gmail dot com) and I can look into it.

  5. Geotpf

    Would this really rent for $1,250 a month? It’s only 471 sq ft, and your rental comparables are 662, 700, 717, and 819 sq ft. Now, all but one are more than your $1,250 a month, but the 717 sq ft one is $1,200. Now, for a rental, the number of beds and baths is probably more important than square footage, but, still, wouldn’t it have to be less than that, say $1,050 or $1,100?

    In any case, this makes an interesting comparable to over here in Riverside. Prior to me buying my house, I lived in an apartment almost exactly this size, but paid $675 a month (more than half the $1,250). I also was at the bottom end of prices for 1 bedroom apartments-typical would be about $800. That difference is much smaller than the difference in sale prices between similar properties in the two cities.

    1. pianist

      I’m also wondering about the rent. Asking amount doesn’t necessarily equal contract amount. Anyone have stories about how much they or their friends and acquaintances were able to negotiate asking prices for Irvine rents?

      1. Geotpf

        I think the prices IR are using for rental comps are off the MLS for closed leases and therefore should represent actual rents, not just asking prices. I don’t doubt the prices are real, just the fact that the square footage for them is significantly higher than this place.

        1. pianist

          IR, would you consider a post dedicated to Irvine rental rates and rent price negotiation for investor owned homes, townhomes, & condos? I don’t think apartment rents should be included as the contract rate doesn’t necessarily reflect concessions that may be earned after x month of residence. I’d love to hear lots of anecdotal stories from the posters here.

  6. biscuitninja

    While the information is great and the report fairly comprenshensive. Some of the numbers are not exactly normal or conservative. 1% property tax? 5% vacancy and collections loss? Speaking from experience these are great for a large number of apartments. For anything less than 10 units, its agressive, VERY agressive. I would probably push the down closer to 30%+ to make it cashflow positive. That way you could probably withstand 1-2 months of no rent if it came down to it (hopefully it doesn’t). Anyways good report.

    1. alan

      As a former landlord, I agree. There are other costs you haven’t factored in. Advertising for tenants. A property manager if you don’t plan on doing it yourself. Vacancy rates are higher than 5%, it can take several months to find a new tenant and my tenants averaged about 1 1/2 to 2 years. Long term tenants are rare.

    2. Geotpf

      Prop 13 fixes property tax at 1% in the state of California. Now, there could be Mello Roos on top of that, although not on a place this old.

  7. surfing in Newport

    I don’t think your calculation is correct with respect to tax treatment.

    You need to calculate all the expenses before any tax adjustment and then look at the profit/loss. That profit/loss will be taxed. How much of the loss you can apply towards reducing your tax bill is something that you need to check with a tax professional.

    Expenses also include depreciation which is not shown and do not include payment towards the principle of the loan.

    1. IrvineRenter

      Yes, both of those criticisms of the tax adjustment are valid. As I contemplated what to do about the taxes, I wanted to keep it simple and get as close to accurate as I could. The big wildcards are things like passive loss limitations of accelerated depreciation of personal property (a specialty of an architect I once worked with). The tax code gets so complex that to be accurate would require more personal data from the buyer, which I don’t want to ask for.

      Part of the reason I didn’t include depreciation is because it is so small now with the extended schedules, and it is really just a deferred tax because it increases capital gains later. Of course, if it is an estate hold, the estate is taxed at original basis whereas the beneficiary gets a full-value basis. It is one way the rich have avoided the inheritance tax.

      All that is to say that I could not find a good way to increase the accuracy. Realistically, in working with an investor, he or she would tell us what marginal tax rate they want to use in the analysis, and we would use that in all of their work.

  8. bltserv

    471 Sq/Ft. Thats not a condo. Its a prison cell.
    What next ? Postive cash flow on a Treehouse or a Cardboard Maytag box in the bushes off the 405 freeway ? No way this will rent for $ 1250.00
    Maybe $800.00 tops.

    1. Gemina13

      That’s what I was thinking. $1250 a month to live in an apartment complex with a duck pond? No thanks.

    2. grabasnorkel

      Zilpy.com (based on ads only, afaik) claims $2.48/sqft for studios in this zipcode (mean 573 sqft), $2.07/sqft for 1 br places (mean 703 sqft).

      Let’s assume the latter number is more accurate, that puts this at just under $1000/month rent. I’d give it a bigger discount, considering these are ads and actual rents will be slightly smaller. I’d say $900-$950 is reasonable.

      Intriguingly, the $2.48 figure for studios would roughly match IR’s numbers. Must be some really desperate renters in Irvine!

      1. bltserv

        IR`s Numbers need to take into consideration this POS is 33 years old. For $ 1400.00 a month you could get 612 Sq/Ft in the “Park” at the Spectrum. Brand new everything and amenities.

        This place needs to be below the weekly flop hotel rate. That puts it down around $ 750.00 a month.

        1. BigDizzle

          Agreed, don’t think this will get anything close to $1,250. Brand new apartment, $600 deposit, at the Park for a little more? I’d say $900 at the top.

  9. Conan

    Will you shut up and listen to me! Shut down all the garbage smashers on the detention level, will ya? Do you copy? Shut down all the garbage smashers on the detention level! Shut down all the garbage mashers on the detention level!


    No! Shut them *all* down, hurry!

      1. Gemina13

        Thank you for making me spew iced tea through my nose. I must remember that comment for future use.

  10. lowrydr310

    Being committed to a one year lease in an apartment makes me feel “trapped” – I couldn’t imagine being committed to a house with a mortgage.

  11. biscuitninja

    Completely agree with this. My apartments aren’t anywhere near this. Although I do have a few long term renters and I do as much as I can to keep them there…. Like little nuggets of gold they are…LOL!

  12. Help is on the way!

    Excerpts from Fannie Mae website.. about debt to income ratio being decreased. This could help decrease the pool of buyers (i.e. eligible demand).

    “DU Version 8.0
    During the weekend of December 12, 2009, Fannie Mae will implement Desktop Underwriter® (DU®) Version 8.0.

    Total Expense Ratio
    With this release, the maximum allowable total expense ratio in DU will be revised to 45 percent, with flexibilities offered up to 50 percent for certain loan casefiles with strong compensating factors. If current debts exceed the maximum allowable total expense ratio, the loan casefile will receive an Ineligible recommendation.”

  13. no worries

    From the NAHB:

    Extending the credit through Nov. 30, 2010 and making it available to all purchasers of a principal residence would result in an additional 383,000 home sales …

    The NAHB has also been arguing to expand the tax credit from $8,000 to $15,000. But using $8,000 per home buyer – and estimating 5 million home sales over the next year – the total cost of the tax credit would be $40 billion.

    According to the NAHB this would result in 383,000 additional home sales. Dividing $40 billion by 383 thousand gives $104,400 per additional home sold!


    Holy crap, what a subsidy. Argh!

    Read the rest of the article as well. I especially see the point about pulling from renters, not creating new households…

    This is so frustrating. And realize it costs $104k, PRINCIPAL. But we’re borrowing that money, right? It’s like putting a car repair on a credit card you’re “hoping to pay off some day”. That $500 repair will end up costing you thousands before you actually pay it down.

  14. newbie2008

    1. RE selling “homes” and not houses. I’ve owned many houses but no home. My family make a home that is neither bought nor sold.
    2. The new Fannie Mae expense ratio of 45% is better than the 60%, but should be at under 32% for a stable economy.
    3. The timing of a buy is dependent on the situation not an absolute rule. Say the price will drop 1%, but interest will double from 4.5% to 9% in one year. Even though the price will down, it would be better to buy with a 30 year fix loan now than to buy for 1% less and double the interest.
    4. IR’s capitalization rate and property value chart shows the dynamics of interest rates to prices. If the rate goes from 4.5% to 6.5% prices should drop by ~30%.
    5. The housing bubble was caused by more than just low interest rates. Reverse arguement of #4.
    6. Low to negative downpayments inflated the bubble, but what is the cure without killing the patient?
    7. When will prices go to affordable levels and will the USA be debt slaves?
    8. The Great Depression had many working people just earning enought to pay their housing and food. The hayday of the 1990-2005 had people spending 60% of their pay on house payments, but they felt rich because house price were going up and borrowed more money.

    1. tonye

      How can someone pay 60% of their income on the mortgage and “feel rich”.

      I felt rich when my stocks were skyrocketing in the late 90s and richer when I sold in Y2K.

      I felt broke when I paid the IRS.

      I feel rich when I can put money into savings and pay off my credit cards on time.

      Maybe, at 50% debt ratio and low teaser rates I could buy in Coto de Caza.. those $3MIL Supersized McMansions are expensive… I wonder if I can borrow more money to pay for the upkeep.

      1. newbie2008

        My family knew there as a housing bubble when the janitor of the office building “purchased” another $900k house. His salary was likely $40-50k. Interest alone would be $30K/year. Refinancing with cash out on the the other houses, he felt rich. Lots of money to spend — All borrowed but still money to spend.

        The bubble moved from internet stocks in the 1990s to housing bubble in the late 1990 to 2004. Look at all the people feeling rich with the internet stocks only to be licking their wounds today. Bubble money comes to those that get in early and cash out before the bubble pops. You did, so where you lucky or wise? Or both?

  15. Sherry Wang

    If you take a similar condo in Rancho Santa Margarita, maybe 10 miles south of this, but still in very good area, 441sqft that closed 9/28/09. (closed, was a bank owned) You will have true positive cash flow. That was a turn key property with washer/dryer that closed for $92,088. Why do people want to buy in Irvine? when they can get same condo (newer) for 1/2 the price only 10 miles away?

  16. brea

    Back in 1985, I bought a 100K house with a $100K loan at 13.25%. Payment was ~$1,100 per month. We started prepaying the loan after we put together a large emergency fund. It was paid off in 13 years. I refinanced, not paying any fees, just to get the lower rates. Each time I picked a 30 year loan just in case there was an emergency that resulted in the need of a $700 or later a $400 payment.

    My husband and I were saving $1,500 per month and later $1,000 after our daughter was born. After a good emergency fund, paying off the mortgage was a guarantied return of the mortgage rate or close enough.

    The real benefit is the added security during this downturn. He has health problems now and we are sure glad to have no debt just in case he can’t work anymore. Our strategy has always been to get and stay in a secure position.

    My husband and I did not know anything about real estate then other than we liked the prices and he was graduating from college. Riverside’s appeal was less risk. I also like the greenbelt with the orange groves.

  17. wols0003

    IrvineRenter, am I missing something here? Why do you include short sales on your blog? Short sale listing prices are not a good representation of true market prices. I just don’t understand the point.

Comments are closed.