Open Thread 9-12-2009

I am tinkering with the post data. Help me out if you can.

118 Winslow Ln   Irvine, CA 92620  kitchen

Asking Price: $499,000
Address: 118 Winslow Ln Irvine, CA 92620

(you should know better)
Dream of better lives the kind which never hate
(you should see why)
Dropped in the state of imaginary grace
(you should know better)
I made a pilgrimage to save this humans race
(you should see why)
What Im comprehending a race that long gone bye

(Ill stop the world) Ill stop the world and melt with you
(Ill stop the world) youve seen the difference and its getting better all the time
(lets stop the world) theres nothing you and I wont do
(lets stop the world) Ill stop the world and melt with you

The futures open wide

Melt With You — Modern English

Does anyone remember the movie “Valley Girl?”

English music was much more popular in the 80s.

Post Layout

I am experimenting with the post layout and information. I am only working with 3 inputs: asking price, previous sale price and
the date of previous sale, so there is a limit to what I can do.

I developed a template I use to compile the property data and display it consistently with the least amount of work. For over two years, I did every calculation by hand — that was stupid. Hopefully, there will be fewer post errors.

I am introducing a few new lines to the typical post analysis. Since the point of these posts is not always to display a shocking loss — it is hard to shock anyone who has been reading a while — I am showing the profit or loss from the transaction as part of the data. I may mention it again if it is integral to the story of the day, but the information will be there if anyone is interested.

I am also showing the percentage change during the period of ownership and the annualized rate of appreciation or depreciation as the case may be. This is calculated by (1) taking the annualized appreciation, (2) dividing by the total number of days of ownership and (3) dividing by 365.25 to convert to years.

I have been having an internal debate if it is better to calculate this based on the raw numbers or if the transaction costs should be included. The total gain or loss is net of commissions. The percentage change and the annualized appreciation is gross. This does overstate the actual return net of commissions and fees, but it is accurate to the numbers presented.

I am also thinking about tinkering with the income data. I can create a formula that changes the income requirement based on current interest rates and other assumptions. This may be more useful, and it will certainly be more accurate.

For instance, for this post, I have used an income requirement that assumes 28% of income will be going to a conventional mortgage payment at 5.25% interest rates. As interest rates go up or down, the income requirement will change accordingly. This should be a close approximation to traditional lending standards applied to current interest rates.

Let me know what you think.

118 Winslow Ln   Irvine, CA 92620  kitchen

Asking Price: $499,000

Income Requirement: $94,474
Downpayment Needed: $99,800

Purchase Price: $204,000
Purchase Date: 7/24/1998

Gain (Loss) after 6% Commission: $265,060
Percent Change: 144.6%
Annualized Appreciation: 13.0%

Address: 118 Winslow Ln Irvine, CA 92620

Beds: 3
Baths: 3
Sq. Ft.: 1,340
$/Sq. Ft.: $372
Lot Size: 1,769 Sq. Ft.
Property Type: Single Family Residence
Style: Cape Cod
Stories: 2
View: Courtyard
Year Built: 1998
Community: Northwood
County: Orange
MLS#: U9003959
Source: SoCalMLS
Status: Active
On Redfin: 1 day
Georgeous 3 bdrm, 2.5 bath home in prestious Northwood Pointe tract. Quiet cul-de-sac location. Dramatic high vaulted ceilings. French and dutch doors. Fire place and formal dining room. Large chefs kitchen. Custom paint and window coverings throughout. Surround sound and security system. Large master suite with large bath and walk in closet. Private brick patio. Completely finished garage with storage and work bench. Lowest priced 3 bedroom, 2.5 bath detached in Northwood.

I like the houses in this neighborhood, but the prices there are simply ridiculous.

69 thoughts on “Open Thread 9-12-2009

  1. scott

    All in monthly payments to own might be interesting for example it would really show the difference in payment for homes that have high mello roos vs one with low mello roos. Or maybe to address this a different way, when you calculate the monthly cost to own (which you are then annualize & divide by .28 to get your income requirement) include insurance property tax and mello roo? I’m not a mortgage expert but I thought when they look at 28% DTI it isn’t just the P&I but these other items.

    Other thought is that rather than showing the downpayment for the house the more relevant metric for the buyer is ‘cash to close’ as you have initial escrow impounds, fees, minimum cash on hand. I recently refi’d with FNMA conforming and needed to show at least 2 months payments as cash in the bank. Rather than overengineering this though I think you might be able to adapt a rule-of-thumb approach of additional cash at closing equal to say 4x the overall monthly payment as additional cash to close.

    1. Walter

      I don’t agree with the statement:

      “there would be no mortgage market today without the government, as nearly 90% of all mortgages issued today are funded or guaranteed by the government.”

      This implies that without the government, 90% would not be made. Instead, rates and down payments would be higher and therefore prices would need to decline so that borrowers could qualify.

      Some percentage of loans would not be made, but not a 90% decline in mortgage volume.

      1. winstongator

        That is a real issue that is not really addressed. FNM insured against default risk, but obviously was not charging enough in premiums. Who paid for that risk??? We are in a period now where higher rates would cause panic, but leaders, in both the public and private sectore, need to acknowledge that higher rates are in the future. At 0% fed rate, we can’t go any lower!

        1. Walter

          “At 0% fed rate, we can’t go any lower!”

          True, but the fed just starts printing money if they want the effect of negative interest rates.

          I am very confused at present at how to proceed with my financial affairs because I do not know what the fed will do. Will they work out of the unprecedented pumping of the economy they have been engaging in? Or will they just keep the presses running? Without knowing, it is hard for me to make choices. The best I can do at present is keep my bets all over the table. Won’t win much, but hopefully won’t lose much either.

    2. MalibuRenter

      Without the various federal programs, interest rates would rise, down payment requirements would go way up, there would be additional underwriting information, and some areas would be defacto redlined by particular lenders.

      What places would be hit especially hard? Places with high price to rent ratios, lots of people who are self employed or have difficulty verifying income, and where prices are dropping rapidly.

      Sound like large parts of CA. KY, NC, VT, not so much.

  2. tonye

    Yeah, I remember Valley Girl, Modern English, The Poorman at KROQ, the punk/new wave clubs at Hollywood and Huntington Beach… wooohooo… ;-D

    Met some girls once at the line to The Seven Seas (a very good punk club in Hollywood then). We were working up in Vandenberg AFB them. They were “westside girls”. Anyhow, my buddy answered that we lived “north”…. on the girls -sooo cute btw- retorted: “Oh, you live in The Valley”. ;-D

    Those were the days… party all night, work all day and rent a place close enough to the beach in CM.

    Seriously, though, that’s one heck of a postage stamp lot. How can they call that a SFH? I thought there were minimum lot sizes for that?

    And, a second story layout for such a small home means those stairs really steal lots of space, huh? There rooms must be tiny.

    Your numbers, they are fine. Maybe you might want to add another line: “Depreciation from Peak Value”.

  3. Modguy

    Are you not going to include loan information anymore?

    Without that piece, it looks like these folks can walk-away with over $250,000 (if they never refi’d or took out a HELOC)… something tells me this is probably not the case here.

    1. IrvineRenter

      I will still show loan information when it is relevant to the post, particularly if there is HELOC abuse.

      I should have done it for this property. They have a first mortgage of $552,000 after a series of refinances and HELOC abuse. Despite the huge profit, this will be a short sale.

      1. cara

        Ah, man. I thought this was one of those happy stories…

        I like the new format, and all of scott’s comments are good ones to think about.

      2. E

        When you noodle through the listings on Redfin…what percentage of the sellers (after checking their mortgages) would you say didn’t do a hefty cash out refi?

        I think that the mortgage history for every house would be interesting, even if it wasn’t a case of HELOC abuse. Why not cheer on the responsible sellers just as we tease the HELOCers? We can still make fun of their WTF prices in the meanwhile!

    1. Lee in Irvine

      Delinquencies are now all over Newport & Laguna.

      Looks like the game of pretend is O.V.E.R.

      I remember telling my in-laws during thanksgiving dinner 2007, that some beach houses could sell for 70%+ off their current asking prices. They smiled, and giggled, and suggested that I didn’t know what I was talking about.

      That father in-law of mine has grown to respect his son in-laws opinion. Especially after I warned him of the impeding collapse in the stock market, and I helped him hedge his retirement via inverse ultra-short ETFs.

      1. Chris

        “Looks like the game of pretend is O.V.E.R.”

        Really? Last I checked, DJIA is still over 9k.

        Not that I don’t think this is a govt Ponzi scheme but clearly the govt owns us.


      2. muzie

        “Especially after I warned him of the impeding collapse in the stock market, and I helped him hedge his retirement via inverse ultra-short ETFs. ”

        Sorry, but no matter the outcome, that was just dumb RETIREMENT advice. SKF (ultra inverse banks) only had short lived episodes where it spiked to 150-300, and is now worth 26$ even though banks are still worth only a fraction of what they did years ago. In the end it didn’t matter that the thesis was right, the amplitude of the scares vs. the inevitable ensuing short coverings completely killed these instruments.

        I would NOT call an instrument that went up in sporadic bursts of 200-300% gains before flaming out to lose 90% of its value an effective hedge.

        Let’s not mistake luck for acumen.

  4. tonye


    HELOC abuse?

    Here’s one I’d like you to look at:

    Realtor claims $800K in upgrades…

    Bought in ’97 for $572.
    Listed for $1.5M
    Taxes are $7K ayear.


    (1) This is a 1.1% tax area, which means that the taxes only show “additional” value of less than $200K. (I know this because I rebuilt my house and know how the county assessor works).

    (2) At best, these owners put $400K, assuming the county assesor figured that only 50% of the money was “new” taxable space.

    (3) This house was originally approx 2000 sq feet.

    (4) The lot is large but I doubt that large. I wonder how they got a 10K sq foot lot. Are they counting all the way to the curb on both sides (set back of 17′ includes sidewalk and parkway).

    All in all this listing sounds really fishy on may counts.

    (1) The RE agent is claiming that “many renovations” totalling 800K have been made. So what? What’s the value of tearing down? Rebuilds don’t necessarily add cumulative value.

    (2) Lot size…

    (3) Overbuilt home. 5000 sq feet is way too big for that area. Rebuilds run less than 4000 sq feet.

    The price per square foot sounds good at first (300 bucks) but the house is so over improved and over claimed that I wonder if they have not degraded value instead of adding…

  5. John

    It is a good neighborhood, but the nicer homes are overpriced and many have tandem garages for extra annoyance.

    This house has been listed on and off for the past 2 years.

  6. garrison

    I thought (and have been told by people in the industry), that the front end 28% ratio is usually not the limiting factor for income requirements (although, I think it should be). The back-end DTI is used more frequently by underwriters (both human and automated processes). It’s probably harder to quantify, as most still carry a heavy debt load with car payments, credit card balances, etc…

    Speaking from personal experience, I’ve been approved for a 930K jumbo loan, yet I make just shy of 200K/yr. I don’t carry any debt and I have 800+ fico scores, so my limiting factor was a 43% back-end DTI. If limited by a 28% front-end DTI I would only qualify for a 720K loan.

    FWI, I’d never push my debt load that high; I abhor the thought of being so “house poor”. I just wanted to add my $0.02.

    1. tonye

      yep. We make a bit just about north of that, plus bonuses and overtime.

      Yet, we find ourselves driving (happily) Hondas and buying our clothes at outlet stores and the likes of the defunct Mervyn’s (great price on Levi’s).

      Our mortgage is pretty low.

      So, how can a family that makes 200K can afford luxuries in Irvine?

      Two kids in High School.

      Oh yeah.. we’re maxing our 401Ks…. So we live as if we “only” made 160K.

      But Obamalosi thinks we’re stinking rich.

      Maybe if Pelosi would be honest with Obama he’d realized (I think he already damn well knows) that making 200K in the West Coast, East Coast and Chicago is “middle class”.

      The reason the Dems do so well in Los Angeles is that there are zillions of “low income” families getting along on $70K per household per year.

      The sad part is that these morons vote democratic and keep getting screwed.

      Oh well, there’s your Maxine Waters for you.

      Time to go BBQ and smoke my cigar and read my Hunter S. Thompson before Obamalosi’s thugs knock my front door down. 😛

      1. Scott

        “that making 200K in the West Coast, East Coast and Chicago is “middle class””

        That’s complete bullshit. I’m a Chicagoan, and 200K is absolutely not “middle class”. Try $50-$100K, bud. And even that’s pushing it on the higher side. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

        1. tonye

          OK, so maybe I tried to give Chicago a pass over the crossover country. Perhaps on account of their fine Philharmonic Orchestra.

          Fine, cross over Chicago. The cost of living in Chicago is similar to Louisina.


          West Coast, East Coast.. 200K is middle class.

          Everything else is crossover country. Land is cheap. Pay is cheap, BUT the cost of a Honda Accord is the same.

          Go figure.

          1. muzie

            Tonye, I make a similar income and I wouldn’t have the pretense to claim I’m part of some poor destitute part of society that’s getting completely screwed. “West Coast, East Coast.. 200K is middle class.” Geez, let’s be real here.

            200k is a hell of a lot of money. Rent is 2k$ here vs. 1k$ elsewhere in the country – fine, I’ll take the extra 100000$ in income with the extra 1000$ cost in rent any day of the week.

            Most of the world lives on less than dollar a day, and most countries in the world have higher tax burdens than we do. I think you should spend more time being in awe at how fortunate we are to be granted the ability to control such cash flow instead of grating on how the little man is getting screwed.

          2. Scott

            No, your Chicago comment was only the most egregiously stupid of your claims. If you think earning over 200K annually on either coast is only “middle class” then you’ve got a tiny, tiny world. The majority of families who live in California earn less than $70,000 per year, so either your estimate of coastal “middle class” is completely delusional, or California has the tiniest middle class in America. I’m guessing both.

  7. AbroadThankGod

    The annualized appreciation stat blows me away — 13 percent per year for the last 9 years. Talk about unsustainable…

  8. DarthFerret

    I’m afraid I don’t have any great advice on the layout. Looks great to me. I’m an analytical type, so more info is always better for me.

    In other news, have any of you seen Marilyn Kalfus’ latest article on the OCR? It talks about a new GOV short-sale program: “The Treasury Department is getting ready to debut a short sale program, signing up specialists and providing incentives for these deals, including sharing some of the costs of paying off second loans, as we reported in the Mortgage Insider. A HUD Assistant secretary told a congressional panel earlier this month: “The final details of the program are being finalized, and will be announced as soon as completed.” ”

    I hadn’t previously seen Matt Padilla’s Mortgage Insider article to which Marilyn referred, so I dug around and found it here: . It has more details on the proposed short-sale program.

    This could be <> game changer in our housing market. Is anyone getting sea-sick yet from this roller coaster ride? How are people supposed to make intelligent and informed buying decisions when the GOV keeps changing the rules?


    P.S. If I were the US-GOV, I’d be encouraging LOTS of short sales. The feds get a nice, fat tax check following short sales. They get nothing out of a foreclosure/bankruptcy.

  9. Mattman

    This may be unscalable for a listing every day, but one additional stat I would find interesting would be a gut feel for how overpriced each listing is. Meaning, if you look at fundamentals (eg. rent) and back into the value of a home using the IHB Calculator, what would the calculated value of the home be?

    Reasoning: I (and I imagine many others on this blog) am always dreaming of what pricing might be in a couple years as prices get cheaper. I would find it valuable to see what a more realistic value of a home might be instead of the wtf asking price many listings are showing today.

    1. IrvineRenter

      I will be able to run queries on the MLS myself soon, so I may be able to add that dimension easier. For now, it is a pain to obtain comparable sales or rentals.

  10. Jeremy

    I’d like to echo others and ask for a rental parity number. One reason I come here is for the koolaid antivenom, and a daily reminder of the disconnection between purchase prices and rents would be really helpful. (In my neighborhood, there are places I can afford, that I really like, that are equivalent to what I’m renting now, and would cost twice as much per month. It’s important to resist those places.)

    One other sort-of-nice-to-have: affordability isn’t strictly linear. What if for the highest-end properties the required income numbers took into account the million dollar limit on the mortgage deduction, for example?

  11. Sue in Irvine

    How about the Wells Fargo VP (a woman) who was using a 12M Malibu beach house in the Colony for her own personal weekend use? It even made the national news last night. Apparently she is the VP of foreclosed properties and had the key. The previous owners were ruined by Madoff.

    1. tonye

      We ran into a similar incident back in ’92.

      Our investment group had just finished building a very nice commercial property in San Diego Cty.

      Because of the “real estate recession” we were able to get it built for $1MIL less than planned than we had raised.

      Yet we were denied a mortgage (construction loans are only good for the construction) by the bank guy.

      Now, it turns out this bank guy was also the guy who handled foreclosures.

      He was relatively new to a bank that the general partner had used for over 20 years in his developments.

      So the general partner smelled a rat.

      To make a long story short, the general manager found out that the new “bank guy” was trying to foreclose on us and have his buddies buy the building.

      Well… he tried to fuck us, but we not only fucked him but really jammed up and his you know what.

      The jerk got fired, got disbarred and thrown in jail.

      The bank owner apologized to our general partner and offered us a most generous mortgage.

      Which means, you can’t trust the bank’s employees one bit.

      I hope this bitch gets her ass thrown in jail and has to pay restitution… millions… for her unethical behavior.

      1. DarthFerret

        IR and site admin’s,

        Any chance that we could have some of the posts in this thread with the more extreme profanity, such as this one by tonye, removed from the board? There’s no call for that in civil and intelligent conversation. Expand your vocabulary some, tonye.

        Also, tonye, why would you bother saying that you “really jammed up and his you know what”, when you just used f— twice in the same sentence? Clearly, it’s not from a desire to restrain the coarseness of your language. Odd that.


          1. DarthFerret


            I seem to recall you apologizing for trollish behavior (and IR accepting your apology) just a few short hours ago. This post makes that apology seem somewhat disingenuous.


          2. no_vaseline

            I used to work foreclosures when I first got out of college. I had a similar situation get shoved on my desk that caused me to leave.

            Tony’s words are offensive, and spot on. If you don’t like it, tough.

          1. no_vaseline

            And just because it’s inappropriate doesn’t mean it’s not accurate.

            For example, when somebody mentions ferrets I think of felching.

          2. AbroadThankGod

            Don’t get your tighty whiteys in a twist, Darth. We’re all adults here and can accept a few profane words. Personal attacks are a bit less reasonable, no matter how politely worded. And you perhaps have been guilty of those…

            By the way, those three dots are an ellipsis. They indicate that there’s more to the story.

        1. tonye

          Are you serious?

          Jeez, you might want to go out, storm Barnes and Noble and burn all books by Hunter S. Thompson, and perhaps throw Kerouac and Tom Wolfe into the mix.

          While you’re burning books, you might also burn everything by Marx, why not.

          Surely, you don’t watch Tarantino either… And God forbid you ever ready stuff like 1984 or revolutionary thoughts like Kubrick.

          Really, my choice of words was _neither_ coarse nor accidental, it was deliberate and premeditated because I wanted to effect a particular gonzo style and reflect the nastiness of the incident.

          Therefore, contrary to your ad-hominem attack, which is logically invalid, my vocabulary is fairly extensive as I have proven that I can write in several styles and methods: subjective, objective, narrative, gonzo, impressionistic, etc…

          So put down that torch, put the books back on the shelves, take a Prozac and read a good book from an author who has no fear of using words that you won’t hear in church.

  12. granite

    Another “Irvine, California-based” business bites the dust. Will this affect Irvine housing prices?


    “Financier Pang, Accused of Bilking Taiwanese Investors, Dies in U.S. at 42”

    “The financier was arrested in the criminal case in April, shortly after the SEC obtained an emergency order freezing the assets of Irvine, California-based PEMGroup.”

  13. Ninja Puhleeeze

    This blog stands out from the rest, and it is even noble in effect after helping so many wage-earning families who would otherwise fall victim to a ruling class of carpetbaggers.

    I’ve been reading IHB since the beginning. I was in the perfect set up to buy at the wrong time and I avoided the urge in part to IR’s daily writings.

    …so I’d rather not see people using low-class vulgar language here. They seem so out of place, and I love it is that way here. I rent too. It feels good when I can participate in something that is enlightening, noble, has a sense of class and dignity.

    Of course I know and I have used that same vulgar language, but if you can feel what I am saying at all please I would rather not see them used here.

      1. DarthFerret

        If you want us to insult your intelligence, we can. However, I would prefer that we assume that you know what language is inappropriate for civil, professional conversation, and in exchange, we won’t treat you like a 5 year old.

        Asking people to dial back the profanity after someone uses f___ twice in the same sentence is a perfectly reasonable request. Enough with the indignation! Let’s just maintain some basic, reasonable standards of decorum and get back to talking about the housing market like civilized adults.


        1. E

          I personally find your “Holier than thou” attitude more inappropriate and offensive than a few colorful words.

          1. DarthFerret

            It’s not holier-than-thou. It’s not about religion, morals, or being offended. I assure you I’m not offended. I’ve said worse recently. It’s about having a civil discussion and maintaining some basic level of decorum and professionalism.

            I find it unbelievable that so many people would get offended about being told to swear a little less in a public place. You are in public, you know.


          2. E

            I’d prefer that people “be themselves”.

            If that involves swearing…so be it.

            If you’d prefer to live in a sterilized world, more power to you.

            I don’t comment to impress other readers or to comply with your definition of “decorum”. I act in public the same way that I act in private. To me, it just means that I’m not “two-faced”.

            Professionalism? I’m not applying for a job.

            If I have something to say, and feel that an expletive gets my true feelings out, then that’s what I’m typing. If someone doesn’t like it…well…fuck ’em.

            Feel free to be uptight about it however. I find it mildly amusing.

          3. tonye

            You are serious?

            You are offended?

            You’re lily white ears are bleeding?

            You think George Bush didn’t swear at meetings?

            You work for HR?

            Ay Virgen de Guadalupe, que gabacho!

            PS- Even with the market down, I have tons of equity, a low mortage payment and I live in TR.

            Loco Gringo.

    1. tonye

      Low class?

      Do you think Rockefeller didn’t swear? And he was as High Class as they come.. Heck, he was Ruling Class.

      You need to look at the context in which those words are used.

      When used to attack a person, then they are definitely out of order (you’re definition of low class, I’d guess) but when used in a specific context they are proper.

      Now, if you can’t handled that writing style, then don’t read but you have to respect the rights of people to use the english language properly and in ways that you many not like.

      Heck, imagine if I had dropped some good mesc caps and wrote down moth%%#%&^%er…. Yikes, everyone would have cra#$p

      Maybe next time I’ll cop an “Ask The Mexican” attitude and call you all gabachos from the Anglo Flat Lands?



      1. Sue in Irvine

        Why do men have to be so macho? Can’t you just say “sorry if I offended you”? And that’s the end of it.

        1. tonye

          Sue in Irvine-

          There’s no machismo at play here. The “Ask the Mexican” is a put on (but do read his column, it’s really funny). Otherwise, you got a joke at play. A double entendre. A play in words. A playful endeavor.

          However, I do take exception about people so self righteous they start preaching from the pulpit with a Miss Manner’s attitude.

          What I find terribly sad is that some people are easily offended by mere words, taken out of context, while the true obscenity going on, the real pornography around them is how the Political System is design to keep us all paying for the ever enrichment of the American Ruling Class.

          The behavior of Big Banks and Wall street is an obscenity.
          The US Polity should be rated XXX.
          The Fed is fornicating the value of the dollar.
          The US Media is into mindless propaganda and entertainment.
          Many US consumers went on a spending spree, having a jolly good old time and now we, the responsible ones, are stuck paying the bills.

          Now, what offends you? My use of words or the actions of the many?

          What affects you more? My use of the english language or the reckless action of the many who are (a) took/take profit and (b) are forcing us to pay up to fix their behavior?

          Anyone who was offended more by my words is a complete fool, a political imbecile and a financial idiot and I owe no apology to such

          So, no, I am not sorry for offending a self righteous thin skinned citizen that is offended by words but somehow ignores that biggest obscenity around them: the continuous corporate rape of the US taxpayer.

          What truly worries me is the existence of such people. The omnipresence of a majority of citizens that are unable to think past the satisfaction of their next meal. The avalanche of sheep like voters that does nothing about the illicit behavior of the Polity and those who wallowed in the toxic KoolAid of the last seven years.

          Obama got elected? Incredible.

          Once upon a time this nation had a revolution. Even the French rallied into Versailles and beheaded their Sun King.

          Why is it that we’re not doing this today?

          Why is it that we have people complaining about the use of the word “fuck” when their own “public servants” are financially sodomizing them?

          Let’s get things straight here.

          First we have a little civil war that replaces the buffoons in the political class and then we discuss whether or not I should pepper my missives with the occasional four letter word.


          My bien… andale!

          1. muzie


            Twenty paragraphs of text explaining why an apology wasn’t required.

            I think this one is a lost cause.

          2. DarthFerret

            Agreed, muzie.

            Although, I’ve sometimes found that even when people flatly refuse to make a stated apology or admit that they were wrong in the slightest, future behavior does sometimes change. After all, I don’t need or want an apology, and I also don’t need anyone to admit that they were wrong. A simple change in behavior would be more than sufficient.

            Perhaps we can hope for that…


          3. tonye

            Hmm… I wouldn’t expect you to realize that YOU are wrong and your are the one that owes any apology.

            Not that I care for your apology for your thin skinned, holier than thou attitude.

            After all, it’s hard to see the real world when you look down at it from a pulpit of your own making.

            If my twenty paragraphs -or so, who’s counting?- explaining the facts of the real world are not sufficient, then you are beyond reach, safely ensconced -to your ever lasting 7th level of detriment- within the walls of your own Private Idaho.


          4. tonye

            BTW- When I purchase myy Ponderosa in the hills of Virginia City, I’m gonna keep tight a$$ed city folks from my front porch.

            Yes siree, my spittoon, a pinch between lip and gum alternating with a fine havano, my fine blue steel Winchester, a flagon of cold beer and an true blue attitude will ensure that anyone that trespasses my “No Pendejos, No Migra” sign gets it.

            Only real people allowed in my premises.. Which I reckon would insult some folks sensitivities. Golly Jee.

            But with Shostakovitch and The Sex Pistols to make the time pass nicely in my mountain abode who gives a (ooops can I say this?..) a rat’s ass about egoist city folks with more sensitivity than brains.

          5. tonye

            Oh.. one more thing.

            You attitude is BORING.
            You writing style is BORING
            You are BORING.

            It’s people like you that that crucified Lenny Bruce.

            But today we dearly remember Lenny and ignore your kind.

            It’s narrow minded people like you that feed the Steppenwolves of the world.

            Kafka had a field day with your kind.

            Einstein ran away from your type.

            OK, IR, I think I’m done with this goldmine. I could write a book. I love writing and..

            I am entertaining.

            So there.


          6. DarthFerret

            tonye: “I am entertaining.”

            Even in the deepest of disagreements, reasonable people can find points on which they agree.


          7. muzie


            Is there any kind of “ignore” button on your blog to block out specific members?

            I can certainly just scroll over anything without reading anything that I find a complete waste of my time (like I did here), but making that process more automatic through a blog feature would be a great addition :-).

            I’m always open to people’s opinions but when I find a particular person has a very low signal-to-noise ratio from my point of view I find myself wishing for that feature.

            Just a suggestion, thanks :-).

          8. tonyE

            jeez.. you guys just don’t give it up.

            IR, yes, please give ME an “ignore” button.

            You see, I’m a very important person and I feel that everything in the web blogs should be just as I want it.

            I don’t really care that this blog is free and that surely you have other things to do with your life.

            So, just do as I want you to do so that I don’t waste my time with people with whom I do not agree. After all my time is very important and yours is not.


            Martin Bormann.

            (By the rules of the Internet/Usenet, the invocation of Bormann effectively kills this thread! Siegheil!!!!! )

  14. Bitter Renter

    IR, some of the changes you’re proposing to how you make your calculations sound good, but it’d be nice if you could include in your template a “footnote”-type link to a dedicated page on the site that explains what assumptions went into the calculation. If you change again how you do the calculation in the future, it’d be nice if you could put that under a new date header on the proposed page (leaving the old explanation under its own date header for people linking to the page from old posts) and changed the template to point to the new version’s #anchor.

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