Fly Away Iron Butterfly

Some properties sell for a big profit and still cost the lenders money. With HELOC abuse, are there really any winners?

22 Butterfly   Irvine, CA 92604  inside

Asking Price: $500,000

Address: 22 Butterfly Irvine, CA 92604

Frank SinatraCome fly with me, let’s fly, let’s fly away
If you can use some exotic booze

Once I get you up there where the air is rarefied
We’ll just glide, starry-eyed

Come fly with me, let’s fly, let’s fly
Pack up, let’s fly away!!

Come Fly With Me — Frank Sinatra

HELOC cash

Nobody wants to face the consequences of their decisions. Most would rather fly away than face the music. Today’s owners are no exception; they already spent their house, so it is time to walk away and let someone else clean up the mess.

  • This property was purchased on 10/31/2001 (Halloween?) for 317,000. The owners used a $253,600 first mortgage, a $31,700 second mortgage, and a $31,700 downpayment.
  • On 2/26/2003 they refinanced with a $290,000 first mortgage.
  • On 10/23/2003 they opened a HELOC for $100,000.
  • On 4/7/2004 they opened a HELOC for $150,000.
  • On 5/7/2004 they opened a HELOC for $136,000.
  • On 3/17/2006 they opened a HELOC for $250,000.
  • On 8/3/2006 they refinanced their first mortgage with a $560,000 Option ARM.
  • Total property debt is $560,000 plus negative amortization.
  • Total mortgage equity withdrawal is $274,700.

This house provided these owners with $55,000 per year in tax-free spending money. It would take a $75,000 salary to take home that kind of money.

Next time around, are you going to be picking up your bags of cash from the lenders?

22 Butterfly   Irvine, CA 92604  inside

Asking Price: $500,000

Income Requirement: $125,000

Downpayment Needed: $100,000

Purchase Price: $317,000

Purchase Date: 10/31/2001

Address: 22 Butterfly Irvine, CA 92604

Beds: 3
Baths: 3
Sq. Ft.: 1,941
$/Sq. Ft.: $258
Lot Size: 2,720

Sq. Ft.

Property Type: Single Family Residence
Style: Other
Stories: 2
View: Greenbelt
Year Built: 1976
Community: El Camino Real
County: Orange
MLS#: S585620
Source: SoCalMLS
Status: Active
On Redfin: 1 day

LovelySpacious Home with Vaulted Ceilings, Open Floor Plan. HUGE Long Family
Room with Lovely Bricked Fireplace and Wet Bar. Living Room with
Fireplace, Formal Dining Room, Kitchen with Newer Appliances and
CounteTops. Extra Room with air conditioner off of the Large Master
Bedroom that can be used as an office, den, playroom or storage.
Central air through rest of the house. Large Private backyard that
backs to Greenbelt 2 Car Garage with newer roll up door. Walk to
shopping, Restaurants, Award winning Irvine Schools

Why do realtors alternate between sentence case and Title Case?

If this property sells for its current asking price, and if a 6% commission is paid, the total gain on the sale will be $154,000, a 58% gain. However, since they have already spent the money, this will be a short sale, and the lender stands to lose $90,000 plus negative amortization.

Iron Butterfly

32 thoughts on “Fly Away Iron Butterfly

  1. Freetrader

    Given the current market this seems fairly priced or a bit low (I am not saying it is good value, just that the comps may be lower). Seems like they may be hoping for a bidding war. I wonder whether they will really sell for $500k.

    1. avobserver

      it’s an old house close to freeway. $258/SF does not sound like a bargain to me. I suspect houses like this will sell for $200/SF in a year.

      1. Geotpf

        I’ll bet they will get at least one offer above list, possibly significantly above ($550k or $600k). Whether or not the bank(s) approve it is unknowable (it’s a short sale).

        My personal opinion is the following:

        Irvine is at or near the bottom, but prices aren’t going to go much up any time soon (but they aren’t going to fall much either; this house will never be sold for $200/sq ft or less). Of course, Irvine is below rental parity, so renting is probably a better deal if you want to live in Irvine, unless you plan on never moving again. That is, if you find a house in Irvine you plan on living in until you die, go for it-it’s nice not having to pay a monthly housing payment when you are drawing Social Security. But if you think it’s at least fairly likely you will move within ten years, you would be better off renting.

        1. Freetrader

          It makes sense that the price is low due to its being a short sale — they just want to see if there is any interest. Even if you make an offer it becomes a three way negotiation. I think the I-5 and the industrial park might put some pressure on the price but not the huge amount everyone else seems to believe. Maybe $50k less for both factors?

          I agree with the comments about now windows, about its being an ugly house. It is actually reasonably large (2k), but the lot is tiny. There basically is no back yard. Someone on this blog once said that if a SFR is on a lot smaller than 4000sf, then the house is in fact a condo. Appears to not be true? But how much do you want to pay for a house with no shared walls but no back yard. Should be priced somewhere between an old condo and an old SFR.

        2. james

          One must be real careful to work with a honest agent. Ray goldmann is dishonest and greedy agent whom only works for himself.

      2. BeachRenter

        Is there a window anywhere in this house? This is the classic example of non descript real estate that SHOULD be plunging in value. This house is 2 blocks from the I-5 and across the street from an industrial complex. It’s last update was probably in the 90’s. hence the “newer this, newer that” comments from the realtard. This just means that at some point in the last 30 years something was replaced. This is a 1/2 million dollar dump. The California dream? Not for this kind of surplus. This house should sell for $425K in a real world scenario. That being said, will the real world ever grace us with it’s presence?

        1. Geotpf

          will the real world ever grace us with it’s presence?

          Not in Irvine. Irvine is special, dotcha know?

  2. Gindy

    It’s priced low due to being a stone’s throw from the 5 freeway and right next to what looks like an industrial park.

    1. MalibuRenter

      One interesting thing about Dallas is that much of the tollway is set below grade. There are a string of mansions along it. If you are 100 ft away you barely hear it. You don’t see it.

      If you are 200 feet away, you basically can’t tell.

      I am also wondering if the concrete used for roads here is somewhat different. There just doesn’t seem to be as much road noise. It seldom has the horizontal grooves that are on so much of California’s freeways.

      1. Geotpf

        Setting it below grade may reduce noise, but I doubt it reduces pollution, which is just as bad a problem. The pollution levels near a freeway are significantly higher than elsewhere in the same area.

        1. MalibuRenter

          Particulates mostly fall within 200 feet, if the road is neither elevated nor below grade,

          I didn’t realize until recently how much climate and traffic matter to people living near a freeway.

          Frequent rains here keep dust and particulate levels lower. I suspect that some other pollutants are lower because of less idling.

  3. winstongator

    I wonder at what stage of life these sellers are. If they were young, they developed a lifestyle with a higher income than they will not have again for a long time (if ever). It appears, to me, for it to be hard for people to reduce their spending, but I’ve never seen anyone have a problem ramping up. If they’re close to retirement, how can that be going? Our negative national savings rate was the cumulative effect of situations like this.

    My wife has ~100k in student loans from medical school. When she would worry about them, I would try to tell her the difference between good borrowing and bad borrowing. Borrowing to build a factory that will generate cash – good. Borrowing to send the CEO on a round-the-world excursion – bad.

  4. AVRenter

    Hey, that’s peyote on Ron Ingle’s keyboard! Sweet! Oh, no, that’s just a glob of PoliGrip Fixodent. Nevermind.

  5. freedomCM

    Close enough to the freeway that if you leave your windows open, you will have black grit everywhere, including your lungs.

    $215/month HOA fine. What do you get for that? a pool?


    1. winstongator

      I think one of the big 4 (Citi, JPM, Wells, BoA) will not make it whole out of this crisis. I also think one of the banks that has paid back TARP funds will have to go back to treas. for additional funds. I don’t know which, but think they’ll happen. The rat is working its way through the snake and there are still lots of losses yet to be recognized. Is it bad to hope that the banking system doesn’t rebound so quickly that impetus to reform is lost? Maybe Rahm’s law to ‘never waste a crisis’ is not being adhered to, although reform has always been in the backseat with bailout driving.

      1. MalibuRenter

        I think 2-3 won’t make it. Most likely to fail: Citi. Oh, hold on. They’ve already failed, it’s just that their denial has been heavily subsidized.

        BofA next most likely. Countrywide and Merrill stand a good chance of killing it.

        Wells and Wachovia are more like 50-50. They might just have a really bad limp.

        JPMorgan has a good chance of making it out alive. Still Bear and WaMu are a lot to try to fix. WaMu is actually more of a problem.

  6. h

    What’s with the photo of the shrub in the listing? Everything else looked so bad they have to show the plants?

    1. Geotpf

      I think it’s there to prove the house actually has bushes. The lot is so tiny you might wonder.

  7. E

    One of these days we need a “what did it finally sell for?” post.

    That way we can geotpftw’s guesstimates.

    1. Geotpf

      I would like to see that as well. Of course, in this case, as well as the case of most short sales, the house will probably never sell and will eventually be foreclosed upon by the bank and then listed again as an REO, maybe a year from now.

  8. jimfromJaxFla

    I know…
    Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, NAR and others will bring us the Change we all hope for !!!…
    Uh, I’m turning BLUE !!!!!

  9. NOT

    A retrospective post would be nice. Go through IR2’s spreadsheet, find all profiled houses, and post the results, links to the original post, and the original “ask” vs actual “get”… Certainly would be interesting.

    1. Geotpf

      Mmm…I’ll try that myself. I went to page 100 (nice even number) of the blog , and here are the properties (from early May):

      #1: Asking: $149k Sold for: No sale, off the market after price was lowered to $114.9k (415 sq ft studio condo)
      #2: Asking: $264.9k Sold for: $266k
      #3: Asking: $849.9k Sold for: $860k
      #4: Asking: $680k Sold for: $670k
      #5: Asking: $244.9 Sold for: $250k
      #6: Asking: $399k Sold for: No sale, backup offers accepted (short sale)
      #7: Asking: $3,675k Sold for: No sale, backup offers accepted (non-Irvine property)

      So, throwing out the last propetry (mega-HELOC drawdown in Los Angeles), we have 6 Irvine properties. Three were very low-end condos and three were more typical Irvine properties. 4 sold, 3 slightly above the asking price, 1 slightly below. One (the 415 sq ft studio condo) is off the market with no sale (although it’s possible it sold but the sale hasn’t made it to Redfin yet), and one is a short sale looking for backup offers (which probably will eventually turn into a REO after the bank forecloses as opposed to approving the short sale).

      1. winstongator

        You should also add in previous, non-bank foreclosing auction price to show the decreases. Sure there was the $860k sale, but it originally went for > $1.2M in 06 – new.

        1. Geotpf

          Sure, everything went down quite a bit. The main current point of contention is whether or not prices will fall further (and whether or not the asking prices are reasonable). I believe prices are at or extremely close to a bottom in many markets, including Irvine, especially for houses as opposed to condos. Other people do not. (Now I don’t believe prices will rise either-I think they will be basically steady for quite awhile, probably several years.)

          1. avobserver


            If RE sales volume goes back up to the historical norm for 6 months or longer, and price still holds up, then I will join your camp believing market downturn in OC is over. So far this price “stability” we have been experiencing in Irvine looks more like a product of short term supply manipulation. At some point in the near future the pent-up supply will hit the market, and we should have a good test of your theory by then.

          2. Geotpf

            If a large percentage of people currently in default but not yet in foreclosure get loan mods, this price level can be supported, because inventory will remain low. If they come on the market en masse, that’s different. Currently, inventory levels are super-low in the sub-jumbo price ranges. The banks could even pick up the pace a bit and sell a fair number more REOs each month without increasing prices much, because inventories are so low that there’s shortages (if 100 people bid on a house, there’s shortages, even if the house was priced at zero). But if the banks all sell at the same time, prices could fall. Also, seasonal factors will come into play-prices will fall in the next month simply because it’s fall, and rise again come spring.

  10. $250/sf is the Bottom

    The bottom for Irvine is at $250 per sf. Only Turtle Rock and Ridge will get a higher price at $300 per sf. The Bottom for the rest of Irvine is $250 per sf or less. Anyone paying more is a fool or a foreign buyer with too much money to spend.

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