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Great post, IR. Thanks for the insight.
A seven year old house for sixty seven thousand dollars. For the price of a BMW 5 series, you can buy a seven year old house. Now that’s a declining market!
The 5-series probably required more in raw materials and skilled labor…
Upkeep is probably higher on the BMW also.
- Started changing the oil on my Bimmer myself.
Awesome post.
Very interesting to see the evolution as you learn from missteps and recognize the risk of occupied foreclosures and the adjustment of prepping/staging Las Vegas homes vs Orange County ones.
I’m still not sure what kind of recovery Vegas is going to see. While it does have an economy of vices, I’m not sure the employment there is high-paying enough to fuel a booming comeback. It’s a place to visit… but not to live. Maybe if it gets cheap enough, FCBs will buy a few vacations homes with their couch change.
These stories are actually more engaging than Irvine HELOC abuse ones… you should really consider starting an LVHB.
Yes. “We don’t need to see Irvine decline identification. These aren’t the articles IHO is looking for. Move along.”
“These stories are actually more engaging than Irvine HELOC abuse ones… you should really consider starting an LVHB.”
I feel the same way when I am writing these stories. Real anecdotes are compelling.
I have been trying to keep the blog focused on Irvine, so I have resisted writing about Las Vegas during the week. I will start writing more about these properties and my experiences there during the week. Perhaps one day a week other than Saturday.
I am glad you enjoyed the post.
BTW, Asians are the fastest growing group of newcomers to Las Vegas. One of my biggest competitors at the auction site is Chinese.
Heh… it’s like BOGO for the FCBs.
Buy One in Irvine so the kids can use the school system, Get One for 95% off in Las Vegas so the parents can hit the tables (via those buses from 99 Ranch).
Also… are you still doing flips in Irvine?
I would like to hear some of those anecdotes too.
No flips in Irvine to date.
It’s your blog. Write whatever you want. And if those who don’t like it can stop paying for their subscription.
as much as i love reading IRs posts, i also come here to read the comments and participate. so while its his blog, getting feedback continues to foster the community.
your blog is under my favorites but i never go to it. if there are comments, its like 1 or 2 people saying the same thing. no community.
Great post and good to hear that the venture is going well.
The analogy to Detroit is interesting because Detroit did not die because people stopped buying cars, it was because they stopped buying cars made in Detroit. I see that potential in gaming also. While it might not be as glamorous to gamble down the street, as gaming becomes legal in more places, Vegas has the potential to fade as a destination. You probably won’t be flipping there when that happens though.
vegas isn’t deeply impacted from the people who would go to local indian casino to gamble.
Their main clientele is the convention business (#1 in hotel rooms in country), whale gamblers and party revelers. I supposed Asian whales are in danger of going to local Macau or Singapore.
Since ‘99, non-gaming revenue has surpassed gaming revenue. It is becoming a foodie capital in its own right.
LV competitive advantage is that no other city is going to be able to easily challenge their dominance as a convention destination in terms of pure logistics nor their brand as a place go to for bachelor parties, boys/girls trip or other “fun weekenders”.
When the economy returns, LV will return.
I read in either Time or Newsweek that having Celine Dion back performing in LV is going to help the economy. I suppose that could be true.
IR..I assume you are buying these places at the courthouse auctions. Do you know at the time you buy a house if it’s empty or do you find out later?
I don’t know conclusively if the house is empty or not when I buy it, but I can make an educated guess.
Often times an occupied property will have evidence of occupation, a car is in the driveway, children’s toys are in the back yard, furniture and personal possessions are visible through windows.
Sometimes the properties are on the MLS as short sales, so there are recent interior pictures. Any short sale with people’s stuff in the pictures is likely still occupied.
The drivers who photograph the properties try to look in windows to determine occupancy, and they also examine the electric meter. If the property is not occupied, the meter will not move as there are no appliances inside using electricity and the power is usually turned off.
It’s not a foolproof method. One of the properties I bought on March 2 looked occupied. I got a better discount at auction because my competitors also thought it was occupied. Apparently, the occupants had just moved out and left trash in the front. I got lucky on that one.
IR,
Wondering if you could share some of your experiences at the auctions? I’ve been to a few in OC and Sacramento, it seems there are many former contractors who are looking for major fixers. Do you see the same thing in Vegas?
I could do an entire post on the evolution of the activity at the Las Vegas auction site. It went from a handful of people in a small lobby to a parking lot full of people under a sun shade.
The contractors are at the auction site, but it is dominated by investors. Locals mostly, because they know the terrain. Many of these locals are backed by outside money, but it’s the natives that are at the auctions picking up deals.
The contractors with some financial backing are working on foreclosures, but the others are broke and unemployed. The amount of money spent on renovations is tiny compared to what used to be spent on new construction. I don’t see many of the contractors because they tend to get a project, then disappear until its done. The investors are at the auction site every day, so their presence is more noticeable.
IR
Very interesting post.
To disclose, I follow the Irvine market and
have no interest in Nevada or LV.
But, I am really curious about one thing.
What is the source of income for the buyers
you have had contact with? Is it gaming/sin
or does anybody have any “real” jobs?
Thanks for a great blog.. I read it daily.
Unemployment in Las Vegas is very high, but more than 80% of the workers are still working their same jobs making the same money they were when prices were 60% higher. I have sold one to a local investor, but the rest have been sold to local owner occupants.
IR - excellent post. Why not rent out those properties that you will lose money on? Or is the business model set up to not hold on to any of these properties?
What is the rent like for these and how easy is it find a renter?
If he rents out the properties, all the capitol will be tied up and the fund will no longer be able to operate as advertised.
Also, how will he pay out the investors at the end of the term?
I may be mistaken but I thought part of IR’s IHBLV investment portfolio was also cash-flow properties where they buy at auction and rent the property out because the the buy cost is lower than rents.
I remember a blog post where it got heated because IR said he was helping people and the LV economy by renting these homes out.
Maybe that has changed.
The fund can sell to cash flow investors.
i suspect that he has to flip quickly to earn the kind of rates of return he needs.
He isn’t setup as a buy and hold REIT in the traditional sense. I’m sure he is setup more like a hedge fund where he makes his money something like a 2/20 type structure. (I have no idea what his compensation structure actually looks like but I’m sure he isn’t doing all this work to earn a 5% management fee on rental income.)
He could rent it out very quickly for short periods of time but if his objective is to turn these in a week, no point in renting it out and certainly can’t rent out occupied crack houses.
“Why not rent out those properties that you will lose money on? Or is the business model set up to not hold on to any of these properties?
What is the rent like for these and how easy is it find a renter?”
Walter’s observation is correct: if I tie up capital in a rental, I will only make 8% to 10% a year. If I flip and make 8% to 10% per property, and turn it over 3 or 4 times a year, my rate of return is much higher. My investors signed up for the higher returns of flipping rather than the more stable returns of rental income.
It is better to take a loss and free the money up to profit on the next deal. Even if I have a 10% loser, I can make it up in three or four months if I pick a 10% winner.
Finding renters is not difficult. Any property can be rented if you discount the rent. So far, that hasn’t been necessary as rents are holding firm. As the economy picks up, rents should go up with it.
Give us an update on where you stand overall.
Are you beating the S&P net fees?
Why would his bench mark be the S&P?
It is a different risk/return and most importantly, largely uncorrelated to S&P. Adding this type of investment will reduce the overall risk to the investors portfolio.
The typical investor in the fund is looking for both return and diversification from uncorrelated returns.
Maybe he should be measured against other types of REITs which might do something similar or a index of private equity funds.
“Give us an update on where you stand overall.
Are you beating the S&P net fees?”
That’s where I have to stop. I don’t think my investors want me to reveal that information. For this first six months, I was thrilled to make anything. I knew there was going to be a learning curve, and I would be forced to adapt to the local market environment. It’s the performance over the next 6 months that will tell whether or not I know what I am doing.
Is it known how much of the increase in vegas business in the 00s was dependent on HELOC or credit card debt (which was subsequently paid off using a HELOC)?
I have a hard time believing that that portion of the vegas action is going to be coming back anytime soon.
My guess is HELOC money became a substantial portion of the local economy starting in 2004. Price in Las Vegas went up nearly 50% in an 18 month period. You have to imagine there was a great deal of mortgage equity withdrawal and some serious partying during 2004-2006.
This was an enjoyable read. Good content, fast-paced and something unique. Thanks and I’m glad I stopped in to read your blog today.
Hi all,
Been lurking here for about 2 months, and wanted to chime in and say to IR: good job as usual, and I especially enjoyed today’s post.
And I’m really curious how long you spend putting together each day’s post, on average?
Thanks again for all the good information.
It certainly takes longer than it used to.
I usually devote anywhere between 1.5 and 2.5 hours per post. Sometimes, if I am inspired I will go longer. The post today took about 3.5 hours to complete.
Basically, I don’t watch TV, and I write instead. I would do very poorly on a Trivial Pursuit TV edition.
Hi great blog. I agree RE is a tough way to make a living. For me though I might buy one to live in I am retired. But there is a disturbing line item in the monthly payment section. The Home owners fees… Is that a mistake?? $280 or is that yearly?
monthly would be a deal liker for me. Vegas is only attractive at rock bottom living expense.
Thanks,
“Detroit watched the auto industry leave with no replacement to fill the void.”
This is one of the best postings yet, but your reference to Detroit repeats a common but untrue belief. The auto industry’s troubles had very little to do with Detroit’s problems. The decline of the City of Detroit started with the 1967 riots, and Detroit will continue to decline no matter how well the car companies do. Even so, I can see the logic in Detroiters burning down empty houses that are used by hookers and addicts. But there is something truly creepy about these stories of brand new, upscale housing projects turning into suburban ghettoes. At least Detroiters have an excuse.
I’m always amazed at IRs lack of understanding of Detroit.
Detroit has all the problems you point out, but it still has significant auto industry jobs. These jobs include extremely high paying jobs at GM headquarters and many higher education engineering jobs at GM and ford. These are high end jobs that will continue to be in Detroit and really do not exist in Vegas. The premium areas of Detroit have held up very well, where the GM executives and engineers live. Other areas are worthless.
Las Vegas is mostly lower education type jobs and hourly workers who make far less than the hourly auto workers whom still exist in Detroit.
I can’t figure out why a lot of people use the statement about the foreclosures:
“it has been a deep plunge for Nevada. Once a leader in job creation and construction, the state had the highest foreclosure rate in the country in January.”
Not only January, but about 50 months before also.
<“Hopefully, it will be to a good family that restores it as the jewel of the neighborhood. That’s the outcome I want”>
Bullshit. You couldn’t CARE LESS about who/what occupies the house. You make it sound like you’re doing “God’s Work”, when in actuality you’re just a stinking middleman who produces NOTHING. You don’t even occupy the house, you just make it more expensive so you can leech off the price difference. Like the unproductive vulture that you are, you simply swoop in, sprinkle some magical pixie dust on any given POS property and, lo & behold, it is now suddenly “worth” $20-100K MORE.
And to make matters WORSE you promote Las Vegas as the next best invention after sliced bread when in reality it’s a dying desert shithole that’s running out of water and jobs faster than you can say FLIPPER. Plus, what kind of an asshole puts his hopes on gambling and prostitution to pull a city thru hard times?
If we did not have private middle men, we would have government middle men (cuba, etc where all the rich people are government employees). Thats way WORSE IMO.
You are free to bid at auctions just like everyone is in this country. Its equal opportunity! Its called capitalism, the public schools vilify it, but thats what we are supposed to be. Dont have cash? Get some investors like IR is! get off the couch!
IR is not even using government funds to flip!!! The retail buyers he is flipping to are no doubt using FHA/Fannie/Fraudie loans. So THOSE BUYERS are the problem (or rather the taxpayers are clueless retards willing to perpetually fund mortgages for dopes with no cash, thus enriching hard working middlemen).
Go Irvine Renter! I wish you the best! Some of those buyers of your homes might not end up in foreclosure!(glass is half full, right? half of them WILL foreclose when they get a job transfer,divorce, et then you can flip same house AGAIN to next 3.5% down payment buyer! yay capitalism! go go go!)
<“You are free to bid at auctions just like everyone is in this country”>
So I can get RIPPED OFF like everyone else in this country too, huh? In case you haven’t noticed, most RE auctions are a SHAM, with secret reserve prices and fake bidders planted amongst the attendees. The fraud is RAMPANT and no one gives a shit, least of all our corrupt government.
As for middlemen, they’re USEFUL only when they connect producers to consumers who would otherwise not be able to access their products. A dipshit that buys a house, slaps a cheap paint-over job on it and puts it right back o the market for an extra $75K HAS DONE NOTHING! And the poor bastard that buys it from the flipper is an idiot who could’ve saved $75K by buying it DIRECTLY.
Don’t forget that the difference between the bubble price/loan and the auction price is paid for by the tax payer. Yes in Las Vegas most of the FHA purchasers IR is selling the flips to will also foreclose eventually That tab will be picked up by the tax payer as well.
In short if IR is lucky enough to be profitable, his profit will be
paid for by the tax payer. The contradictions and hypocrisies keep on coming. You may take solace in how boring and dirty this flipping must become in a short amount of time.
Exactly.
IR’s entire business model is COMPLETELY predicated on his ability to consistantly find a GREATER FOOL willing to catch the falling knife.
And that means the TAXPAYER in most cases by default.