Borrowers default on first mortgage and keep second mortgage current

Dec 22nd, 2010  
by IrvineRenter  in Library News

Astute Observations

Astute Observation by It all happens on the margin
2010-12-22 04:08 AM

IR,

Forgive me if you’ve addressed this point previously… The income requirement on most of the profiled homes likely makes the buyer subject to AMT, which means no tax savings on the property tax.  I realize income isn’t the only driver, but still.

Given one might be subject to AMT over the course of ownership, does it make sense to show property tax deductibility in the analysis?

Astute Observation by Perspective
2010-12-22 10:57 AM

Your point is fair, but the AMT calc and circumstances are too complicated to assume it will eliminate every dollar of property tax from your itemized deductions.  TurboTax allows you to run various scenarios to see how the AMT affects your decisions.

Astute Observation by It all happens on the margin
2010-12-22 11:00 AM

Given the rest of the analysis is appropriately conservative, and that home buying is a long term decision, the likelihood of being subject to AMT over the course of the term of ownership -AT SOME POINT- is real and probable.

It seems odd, given the rest of the analysis is so conservative, that property tax is assumed to be deductible.  Just out of place, IMO.

Astute Observation by Perspective
2010-12-22 12:13 PM

It is real and probably, but it’s not dollar-for-dollar.  So what can you assume - that the AMT will reduce the deductibility of property tax, the size of the reduction to be determined under your specific tax circumstances?

Anecdotally, friends who are high-earners, have stay-at-home spouses, and 2+ kids, tend to get hit the hardest by the AMT.  A high-earning husband + high-earning wife + 0 kids = very low AMT liability.

Astute Observation by It all happens on the margin
2010-12-22 12:20 PM

Once you are hit with AMT, you cannot deduct property tax AT ALL.  It’s an all or nothing situation.

I appreciate your anecdotes, but AMT is generally more likely to hit when you have sizeable deductions (i.e. interest).

Earning over $150k per year + a mortgage + charitable contributions = highly likely to put a household into AMT.

It’s counterintuitive: a household close to hitting the AMT threshold should defer deductions into the following year.

My point is this: don’t count on property tax being deductible for the life of the loan.  Unless you plan on earning or deducting less or are far below the AMT threshold.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2010-12-22 05:24 AM

If you’ve got equity and access to a heloc, you can self ponzi by using heloc money to make 1st mortgage payments.  Or you do a cash-out refi and save the cash for future payments.

Astute Observation by scottinnj
2010-12-22 06:17 AM

Maybe its a southern California thing, but if the ceilings have been scraped, don’t you think they should repair that before they sell the house?  My 5 year old has scraped the walls and this leads to them needing to be sanded and/or repainted.

Astute Observation by awgee
2010-12-22 07:10 AM

The repair and repaint is implied.  In Southern California, when we say the ceiling has been scraped, it means the popcorn texture has been removed and the ceiling has been restored to a smooth finish.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-12-22 08:07 AM

I myself was wondering WTF that meant.  My first guess was that it meant they removed the popcorn but surely the “r"ealtor could have come up with a description that wasn’t based on slang.  But then again, they capitalized every other word in the description and wrote nonsensical statements like:

The complete kitchen remodel will be the pride of you at home gourmet
(Seriously?  WTF does this mean?  The pride of you at home gourmet?  It almost sounds like mind control.)

Just another listing written by a moron.  Nothing should surprise me.

Astute Observation by Perspective
2010-12-22 10:59 AM

We have a lot of English-as-2nd-language people in Irvine (recent immigrants are attracted to the real estate agent “profession” too, as it requires no education and little skill).

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-12-22 11:21 AM

I hope that is the real reason.  You would think that the “r"ealtor group would hire a couple of English Literature majors from UC Irvine and pay them 20.00$ an hour to proof read these listings on 700K houses. 6% on a 700K house is 42K; not sure what the going rate for a proof reader is these days but something tells me they could find one even on a super-tight budget like that.

Astute Observation by Vincenzo
2010-12-22 01:29 PM

It means that there had been black rain leak stains and mold. Then the ceilings were cosmetically repainted.

Why would a homeowner in foreclosure pay thousands to an unionized roofer?

Astute Observation by Flyovercountry
2010-12-22 07:28 AM

My guess about the first vs second defaults is pretty simple.  Most homeowners who default on the first and keep current on the second don’t know what the hell they are doing. 

They don’t have a grand plan… it is just that they can’t afford to pay both, and figure it makes no difference which one they pay, so they pay the smaller of the two bills.

Or if they are a little smarter, they choose to pay the loan with the higher interest rate, which would typically be the 2nd mortgage.

Astute Observation by gepetoh
2010-12-22 11:54 AM

I agree, I think we give the general population too much credit.

Astute Observation by Swiller
2010-12-22 12:07 PM

By defaulting on the 1st and keeping the 2nd current, it increases your opportunity to get a loan modification on the 1st. After you obtain your modification, THEN you default on the 2nd as you are upaside down and they will not foreclose. Following this, you declare chapter 7 or chapter 13 and go from there.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2010-12-22 08:35 AM

How much of this can also be the fact that the first might be securitized and on someone else’s balance sheet, while the 2nd might be held by the servicing bank.  At that point, the servicing bank would have an incentive to tell borrowers to pay them (the 2nd) and not the 1st, in the hope of getting a mod on the 1st.  I’m sure that is against the rules of the securitization/servicing agreement, but so are a lot of other things that have been going on.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-12-22 08:39 AM

The ceilings have been scraped, Canned lights, 4’ Base boards, Crown Moulding, Plantation shutters

Astute Observation by Dono Treply
2010-12-22 09:18 AM

I wonder what the 4 foot base board looks like.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-12-22 09:56 AM

Those go in the Yoga studio:

Astute Observation by darms
2010-12-22 02:56 PM

This is your best one ever! I’ll be seeing “4’ base boards” the rest of the day! Thanks! Now could you respin it with this picture in the background?

<EMBED SRC=“http://www.cerwinvega.com/images/Products/Vega-Bass/le36-lg.jpg” ALIGN=“bottom” ALT=“Earthquake!”>

Astute Observation by scottinnj
2010-12-22 10:50 AM

LOL - if they had those in the house it would make the house worth $695k.

I also noticed the ‘extra large’ 3 car garage - that is good, I prefer the extra large 3 car garage to the extra small 4 car garage any day of the week.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-12-22 09:03 AM

Great job on the transporter room!  What a great way to entertain your Irvine guests!

Beam us up!

Astute Observation by Scott
2010-12-22 09:26 PM

Dude, you better be glad you aren’t wearing a red shirt!

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-12-22 10:20 AM

Breaking NEWS!

Used House Sales Down 30% Year Over Year

Although give due credit to the reporter for trying his best to spin it!

Astute Observation by awgee
2010-12-22 10:31 AM

Oh my gosh!  Every body in the office is staring at me because I laughing so hard.

Astute Observation by bob
2010-12-22 11:39 AM

Looks like house is already in contract and accepting only back up offers. $362/sqft..its almost close to the peak price. Irvine great.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-12-22 11:53 AM

The housing crash in Irvine continues LOL.

There’s very low demand for Irvine housing and few people with large down payments.

Astute Observation by irvine_home_owner
2010-12-22 12:05 PM

Like I said… we can be shocked by the prices for these “upgraded” homes… but someone is buying them.

Irvine inventory down to 730. Wasn’t there some blog entry where that number was supposed to keep going up?

Astute Observation by lee in irvine
2010-12-22 03:51 PM

Irvine inventory down to 730. Wasn’t there some blog entry where that number was supposed to keep going up?

Last year at this time there were 461 Irvine homes on the market.  So seasonally adjusted, we have a 58% increase in inventory over last year.  Ouch!  We also have thousands of homes that are either in default, or in the foreclosure process (shadow inventory).  Then you have to add all the mortgage owners that are either in a negative equity position, or are withing 5-10% of negative equity ... these people will only add to the growing shadow inventory.

Astute Observation by tenmagnet
2010-12-22 12:25 PM

Exactly,
Even the low hanging fruit like today’s property is selling for a premium.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-12-22 12:31 PM

Astute Observation by newbie2001
2010-12-22 02:42 PM

Those that purchased in Irvine before 2002 are not losing a home to FC, they are just locking in their profits and ending their free rent to FC.  The equity was withdrawn and will not be taxed if completed before ____?___ (end of debt tax forgiveness).  Better than stocks or other investments.

Only ones lossing their house and equity to FC are those who made large downpayments at the peak or thereafter.  According to the leading US economists and policymakers, the US needs to spend it self out of a recession using borrowed money.

AMT is not an all or nothing.  I have a wife and kitds and don’t have interest payments but am hit often with AMT.  The charitable deductions can not be carried forward and the SchA deductions are just reduced.  I just let TurboTax or an accountant figure out the reduction.

Astute Observation by lee in irvine
2010-12-22 03:32 PM

REVERTING TO THE MEAN
—————————————————————————
Vol. 5, No. 14
December 2010
Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas

The Fallacy of a Pain-Free Path to a Healthy Housing Market
by Danielle DiMartino Booth and David Luttrell

In the mid-1990s, the public policy goal of increasing the U.S. homeownership rate collided with a huge leap in financial innovation. ...

Reverting to the Mean Price
As gauged by an aggregate of housing indexes dating to 1890, real home prices rose 85 percent to their highest level in August 2006. They have since declined 33 percent, falling short of most predictions for a cumulative correction of at least 40 percent.[1] In fact, home prices still must fall 23 percent if they are to revert to their long-term mean (Chart 1). The Federal Reserve’s purchases of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac government-sponsored-entity bonds, which eased mortgage rates, supported home prices. Other measures included mortgage modification plans, which deferred foreclosures, and tax credits, which boosted entry-level home sales.

http://dallasfed.org/research/eclett/2010/el1014.html
—————————————————————————

Somebody at the Fed is going rogue!

Astute Observation by It all happens on the margin
2010-12-22 04:01 PM

Do yourself a favor and sign up for a free 3 day trial at ForeclosureRadar or RealtyTrac.

The good:
The number of loanowners living rent/mortgage free in their stucco boxes in the magic land of Irvine is STAGGERING.  It is literally a Christmas tree with brightly colored ornaments on the map.

The bad:
When you drill in on the NOD/NTS stories, you’ll see folks have squatted many months and years beyond the traditional 6 month mark.

The ugly:
I personally know (work with) two loan owners that are doing strategic defaults.  One is on month ELEVEN with NO NOD FILED. That’s right, he’s a hidden ornament on that Christmas tree.  Add his stucco box to the properties taken back by the bank but not on the market, plus the known properties under NOD/NTS - THEN you have the true picture.

Truly a giant train wreck in the slowest of motion.

As many have stated on this blog, it is we who have diligently waited and/or prudently purchased that are the absolute FOOLS.  By all rights, we should have bought with nothing down, refi’d, cashed out and strategically defaulted, regardless of timing or price or location.

Half the schadenfreude on this site stems from that regret.  ‘Coulda been a contender.

Astute Observation by irvine_home_owner
2010-12-22 04:07 PM

What about:

The untold:
Many of those ornaments seem to disappear over time. I remember foreclosure radar maps of Quail Hill that graphrix used to post that were supposed to tell the story of utter destruction in that area. 2 years later… Quail Hill still survives, SFRs are still above their 2003 build date prices and although the condos have started to drop to that pricing… the foretold apocalypse has not arrived. Maybe in 2012 with the rest of the world?

And if you really want a Christmas tree… try some other city than Irvine… many more lights… and more red ones too.

Astute Observation by It all happens on the margin
2010-12-22 04:18 PM

Yeah, I remember graphrix’s maps and tables too.

You are correct that other areas have more NODs than Irvine (Ladera, Talega, much of the IE, anything built out during the boom) but that doesn’t validate your narrative.

No one predicted the ‘robo-signing’ problem at the banks. And it’s very hard to fight the Feds - they’ve propped this thing up, given free money to banks to assist with mods/make it less painful to carry the toxic assets.  So folks have ended up staying in “their” homes.

The bubble was built with marginal increases in sales prices.

It has deflated in some areas with the correlated marginal decreases in sales prices in the form of distressed sales.

Irvine is different, I think, because the loan owners are more sophisticated and manage default differently and there remains an irrational, emotional interest in buying property there.  I say irrational because it is gobs cheaper to rent and makes no sense from an investment perspective (cap rates).  And the rentals are very, very compelling.  We had a place across from the Woodbury Commons that was to die for - it was $2600 per month - on a $750k place! WTF ?! Why in God’s name would you buy that place?

Astute Observation by irvine_home_owner
2010-12-22 04:30 PM

...and there remains an irrational, emotional interest in buying property there.

See… I like it in Irvine too and I can sort of understand it. But it really does boggle my mind that people are still buying at these prices.

I do find it ironic that everyone knows that the bubble inflating in the first place was irrational and defied fundamentals, yet they find it hard to believe those same factors are what’s preventing a hard deflation of that bubble in Irvine. Psychology and perception play just as big a role as economics and valuation.

And I’m no expert so I’m not looking for validation… just telling it like I see it.

Astute Observation by matt138
2010-12-23 03:19 PM

Psychology and perception play just as big a role as economics and valuation


Only in the short term.  Fundamentals always win long term.

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