I keep having an image in my head of Billy Madison when I read this thread.

I think we tend to dummy things down for our kids or just assume they can’t handle it without giving them an opportunity to try. When they see something flying in the air we tell them it’s a “plane” instead of a DC-10. Yes, I agree school standards have increased. I was surprised when my son started Kindergarten that they were writing journal entries right away. But they do it using their “Kindergarten spelling” a.k.a. phonetics. I think any kid who has a decent preschool background will catch on to this very quickly. In fact a lot of the stuff they did this year was a repeat of what he learned in preschool. In preschool they were already learning how to tell time, how a plant grows, and how to sound out words. If the child is struggling then there is an excellent opportunity to identify which things he needs extra practice on and reinforce it at home. Yes there is still coloring, cutting, and pasting too. It’s not Harvard. It’s just elementary. Kids go to learn, not to show up knowing everything already. I think us parents lose sight of that sometimes. We become pushy “stage parents” instead. Why not give them the opportunity to discover their own potential. Also utilize school breaks to work together at home. Let’s not be lazy this summer. Get some work books, have your child read, sign up for classes this summer - anything to keep their little wheels turning and prepare for the coming school year. (Stepping down off soapbox now.)

CK - 26 May 2009 12:36 PM

FWIW, a personal observation…..My nephew is an early November birthday.  He attends an academically rigorous LAUSD school (Castlebay Elem in Porter Ranch—API 920+).  My brother and sister-in-law started him in Kinder as soon as he was eligible at 4 years old (turning 5 in Nov).  While he made it through K fine, he slipped behind in 1st grade, which is a big step up from K as I understand it.  He ultimately ended up being held back after 1st grade, and it was very hard on him after having spent two school years with the same friends.

Looking back, they wish they had held him in preschool another year—- they were on the fence at the time.  He is just about to finish is second try at 1st grade next month, and is exceling in his class this year.

Thank you for sharing this story. 
That was a right thing to do for your relatives and your nephew seems to take it well at the end.
I’m scared to make a decision either way - acadmically he is at and beyond 1st grade level (it’s his first year as English speaker as well) socially he is a normal 6 year old boy who happens to be in teh same class with 7 years old kids.  Being the youngest puts a lot of pressure on him it seems.  If he will repeat 1st grade and stays with his age group he will be owfully bored as he is now at some of the subjects he is too familiar with.

new_to_irvine - 26 May 2009 04:29 PM

CK - 26 May 2009 12:36 PM

FWIW, a personal observation…..My nephew is an early November birthday.  He attends an academically rigorous LAUSD school (Castlebay Elem in Porter Ranch—API 920+).  My brother and sister-in-law started him in Kinder as soon as he was eligible at 4 years old (turning 5 in Nov).  While he made it through K fine, he slipped behind in 1st grade, which is a big step up from K as I understand it.  He ultimately ended up being held back after 1st grade, and it was very hard on him after having spent two school years with the same friends.

Looking back, they wish they had held him in preschool another year—- they were on the fence at the time.  He is just about to finish is second try at 1st grade next month, and is exceling in his class this year.

Thank you for sharing this story. 
That was a right thing to do for your relatives and your nephew seems to take it well at the end.
I’m scared to make a decision either way - acadmically he is at and beyond 1st grade level (it’s his first year as English speaker as well) socially he is a normal 6 year old boy who happens to be in teh same class with 7 years old kids.  Being the youngest puts a lot of pressure on him it seems.  If he will repeat 1st grade and stays with his age group he will be owfully bored as he is now at some of the subjects he is too familiar with.

I wouldn’t worry about him being bored.  My son is in K right now, and his reading level is 2nd grade, and his math is third grade.  I did notice that he is always among the first students finishing tasks during the class.  While other kids continue their work, he is usually asked to read his own books.  He never complained being bored.

From what you described, your son is definitely a smart kid.  With involved parents like yourself, his academics is the least thing you need to worry about him.

In earlier school years boredom in the classroom is not that big of a deal, however it DOES create problems later.  My 5th grader reads at a college level, his math scores were all around the 11th grade-level and is extremely artistic.  It has become VERY difficult keeping him engaged in the classroom.  He tends to fidget, talk and can be disruptive, which is not fair to the other children in the class.  His teacher and I have regular conversations about how to keep him engaged and interested as his attitude towards school had begun to change.  (My older son had similar issues, but responded by becoming lazy since it came easy to him, which is now creating other issues as he gets older and into more challenging classes.)  So definitely base it on your son’s individual needs and SOCIAL age.  The fact that he is still learning English will balance the subjects that he has mastered.  As for the social aspect, you may want to involve him in a number of extracurricular activities (beyond just sports) so he can meet a variety of children and choose the types of kids he “clicks” with.  My youngest will be more challenged once he hits junior high and can take honors classes, but in the meantime - I totally agree with SoCal78 that we tend to dumb down our kids Give them opportunities to rise to the challenge.  Truly, parents like the ones on here who truly CARE about these things are going to have great kids.  There are variables and we can’t be perfect, but I wouldn’t look at it out of fear.  Plenty of us had some pretty haphazard childhoods and turned out quite well!  With parents posting what I have seen on here… our kids are pretty blessed with conscientious parents and will do well.  Better to be challenged while at home with a support system then to be shocked by that big world out there later!

jenyfurg - 27 May 2009 12:32 PM

In earlier school years boredom in the classroom is not that big of a deal, however it DOES create problems later.  My 5th grader reads at a college level, his math scores were all around the 11th grade-level and is extremely artistic.  It has become VERY difficult keeping him engaged in the classroom.  He tends to fidget, talk and can be disruptive, which is not fair to the other children in the class.  His teacher and I have regular conversations about how to keep him engaged and interested as his attitude towards school had begun to change.  (My older son had similar issues, but responded by becoming lazy since it came easy to him, which is now creating other issues as he gets older and into more challenging classes.)  So definitely base it on your son’s individual needs and SOCIAL age.  The fact that he is still learning English will balance the subjects that he has mastered.  As for the social aspect, you may want to involve him in a number of extracurricular activities (beyond just sports) so he can meet a variety of children and choose the types of kids he “clicks” with.  My youngest will be more challenged once he hits junior high and can take honors classes, but in the meantime - I totally agree with SoCal78 that we tend to dumb down our kids Give them opportunities to rise to the challenge.  Truly, parents like the ones on here who truly CARE about these things are going to have great kids.  There are variables and we can’t be perfect, but I wouldn’t look at it out of fear.  Plenty of us had some pretty haphazard childhoods and turned out quite well!  With parents posting what I have seen on here… our kids are pretty blessed with conscientious parents and will do well.  Better to be challenged while at home with a support system then to be shocked by that big world out there later!

If he reads at college level and does math at 11th, why don’t you just sign him up for the next SAT and work to get him into college way early?  I’m sure some Ivy League schools would love to have a 13-14 year old that tested top 1% on the SAT…

jenyfurg - 27 May 2009 12:32 PM

(My older son had similar issues, but responded by becoming lazy since it came easy to him, which is now creating other issues as he gets older and into more challenging classes.)

Mom?

Just kidding… but this is what worries me. I would rather have my kid challenged whether it be academically or physically. I don’t want school (or sports) to be too easy for them because they are the smartest or biggest in the class because it will lead to laziness/complacency (like I said… this is from experience).

But then again… I don’t want them to be frustrated and turned off by school either.

How dare these kids not have instruction manuals when they were born!

irvine_home_owner - 27 May 2009 12:42 PM

jenyfurg - 27 May 2009 12:32 PM

(My older son had similar issues, but responded by becoming lazy since it came easy to him, which is now creating other issues as he gets older and into more challenging classes.)

Mom?

Just kidding… but this is what worries me. I would rather have my kid challenged whether it be academically or physically. I don’t want school (or sports) to be too easy for them because they are the smartest or biggest in the class because it will lead to laziness/complacency (like I said… this is from experience).

But then again… I don’t want them to be frustrated and turned off by school either.

How dare these kids not have instruction manuals when they were born!

I wonder if a 5th grade kid that is doing math at an 11th grade level means they are doing Trig?  So in another year they could/should be doing Calculus?

LOL - he is going to be taking a couple of courses at IVC this summer, but music & art courses.  I’m working with a charter program for him and he will be tested to enter college early.  We have to get a letter from his school recommending him to take the IVC classes, so on so forth… Because they don’t TEACH trig in 5th grade he is not.  However a friend of mine teaches Algebra at a Jr. College and had him play with some higher level equations (that baffled ME) and he understood the concepts and was “computing appropriately” she said.  (Sounded to me like she was referring to my computer, not my son!) But yes, keeping him engaged in class has been interesting.  The reading part is easy; I just send him with higher level books than they keep in his class.  So, I say challenge our kids more and pull back when they aren’t enjoying it!  I actually had a couple of teachers (early on) suggest testing him for ADHD and a host of other things because he “couldn’t focus” even though his work was always being completed very well.  He was bored and antsy - so I wonder in this culture of labeling and diagnosing EVERYthing with our kids, if we just aren’t allowing them to be challenged enough (appropriately of course).  I’m a single mom who has not been super pushy, and if anything I feel guilty for not getting my boys involved in more, so this is not my doing at all.  It is just how he’s “built.”

ipoplaya - 27 May 2009 01:37 PM

I wonder if a 5th grade kid that is doing math at an 11th grade level means they are doing Trig?  So in another year they could/should be doing Calculus?

No, they test based on how they “compute” and then they have additional, higher level math problems using concepts they’ve learned, but at a more complex level to test what to which grade level that equates.

jenyfurg - 27 May 2009 07:55 PM

LOL - he is going to be taking a couple of courses at IVC this summer, but music & art courses.  I’m working with a charter program for him and he will be tested to enter college early.  We have to get a letter from his school recommending him to take the IVC classes, so on so forth… Because they don’t TEACH trig in 5th grade he is not.  However a friend of mine teaches Algebra at a Jr. College and had him play with some higher level equations (that baffled ME) and he understood the concepts and was “computing appropriately” she said.  (Sounded to me like she was referring to my computer, not my son!) But yes, keeping him engaged in class has been interesting.  The reading part is easy; I just send him with higher level books than they keep in his class.  So, I say challenge our kids more and pull back when they aren’t enjoying it!  I actually had a couple of teachers (early on) suggest testing him for ADHD and a host of other things because he “couldn’t focus” even though his work was always being completed very well.  He was bored and antsy - so I wonder in this culture of labeling and diagnosing EVERYthing with our kids, if we just aren’t allowing them to be challenged enough (appropriately of course).  I’m a single mom who has not been super pushy, and if anything I feel guilty for not getting my boys involved in more, so this is not my doing at all.  It is just how he’s “built.”

I understand the problem and worry jeny.  I was one of those kids that “tested” at 10-11th grade level when I was in 5-6th grade too…  I was bored silly in elementary and junior high, despite being in MGM/GATE/Vanguard/whatever accelerated program they could find, but had a creative and analytical outlet in role-playing games.  Scary to admit, but I think Dungeons and Dragons helped keep my brain sharp when the academics couldn’t.  Despite an honors program in high school, AP courses, etc. I was still pretty bored so I occupied myself with doing things I shouldn’t (ditching, partying, drugs) and crafting very intelligent ways to escape detection/punishment for my transgressions.  I was high for my only SAT sitting but my score was still good enough to get me into almost every place I applied…  I knew many very smart kids that were bored in high school that became pot heads and never gave it up.

I wish my parents would have done what you are doing by providing anothe focus area like art or music.  Classes at the JC are great too.  I took four college classes at a JC during my high school years.  My parents never thought of it earlier.  If you’re not already doing it, team and individual sports would provide a welcome attention area.  I think too often parents of children that are gifted focus too purely on core academics.  If they are gifted at 10-years old, they’ll be gifted when they are 16, 18, 22, etc.  Let them use their extra time now to master a language or two, get good at baseball or tennis, or because expert on a musical instrument.

new_to_irvine - 26 May 2009 04:29 PM

I’m scared to make a decision either way - acadmically he is at and beyond 1st grade level (it’s his first year as English speaker as well) socially he is a normal 6 year old boy who happens to be in teh same class with 7 years old kids.  Being the youngest puts a lot of pressure on him it seems.  If he will repeat 1st grade and stays with his age group he will be owfully bored as he is now at some of the subjects he is too familiar with.

This happened to us.  Boredom in 1st grade caused emotional and social problems for my kid.  She lost her love of learning.  Once we moved her to a more challenging school, all the problems disappeared.

Every kid is different and some don’t fit in well with the lockstep-by-age model most schools rely upon.  There’s plenty of research that supports acceleration as the best option for some kids.  The Templeton Report is really good.

We also took her to an educational psychologist who tested her and showed us a variety of options.  That helped us a lot.

steven - 28 May 2009 10:34 AM

new_to_irvine - 26 May 2009 04:29 PM

I’m scared to make a decision either way - acadmically he is at and beyond 1st grade level (it’s his first year as English speaker as well) socially he is a normal 6 year old boy who happens to be in teh same class with 7 years old kids.  Being the youngest puts a lot of pressure on him it seems.  If he will repeat 1st grade and stays with his age group he will be owfully bored as he is now at some of the subjects he is too familiar with.

This happened to us.  Boredom in 1st grade caused emotional and social problems for my kid.  She lost her love of learning.  Once we moved her to a more challenging school, all the problems disappeared.

Every kid is different and some don’t fit in well with the lockstep-by-age model most schools rely upon.  There’s plenty of research that supports acceleration as the best option for some kids.  The Templeton Report is really good.

We also took her to an educational psychologist who tested her and showed us a variety of options.  That helped us a lot.

Do you have a recommendation for an educational psychologist in Irvine area?  I do not think IUSD provides any resources in this regard?

Thank you all for your support. 
I’m very greatfull that I had a chance to discuss it here and get lots of advices and personal stories from you that helped us to make a decision.
We decided to leave public school system for a year and go to well-recommended private school for a year. We will go to 2nd grade.

new_to_irvine - 28 May 2009 12:39 PM

Do you have a recommendation for an educational psychologist in Irvine area?  I do not think IUSD provides any resources in this regard?

We used Dr. David Palmer.  I don’t know about IUSD.

Thanks for the name of that psychologist and IPO… for your insight too!  That is EXACTLY what I worry about at times.  (World of Warcraft, the new Dungeons & Dragons - HA!)  Thankfully between NJB (Basketball - GREAT league that teaches fundamentals and plays 5 periods so each child gets to play in 3) and now piano and some art classes, I am finding ways to keep his busy mind challenged.  SO appreciate the name of that Educational Psychologist too (my youngest DID test for anxiety when they were ruling out ADHD, etc.) so that will be a great help! 

NTI - the private school thing sounds like a great idea also!  I have found that, for the most part, the teachers will work with you in keeping the smarter kids challenged.  But, like IPO said, some kids are just plain bored in school.  Another note about Irvine schools, my oldest son got into that lazy/no more effort cycle that can be common.  He goes to school at Southlake, and they have a program in 8th Grade called Life Boat for kids that have a lot of potential but have let themselves get in over their head.  It is a 7-week intervention that keeps them after school and in during snack & lunch to get caught up and reinforce study habits and consistency.  My eldest was in this and is TOTALLY excited about school again, caught up and looking forward to challenging himself in high school.  We truly have some great schools and programs designed to “catch” some of the kids that don’t fit into the “typical” mode. 

FYI, once kids are GATE tested, that is an IEP (Individual Education Plan) legally; just like those set up for a child with a learning disability.  This means you can require the schools to keep your child in more challenging classes, Gate program, etc.  So even if your child is not “recommended” for testing (sometimes kids that are advanced, but have behavior issues, are not recommended) you can request in writing that they are to get them into those programs.  So regardless of the age at which your child enters the school system, there are MANY resources out there to make the most out of their education (especially in Irvine schools)!  Thanks again guys - one more reason I am hooked on this site!

steven - 28 May 2009 12:51 PM

new_to_irvine - 28 May 2009 12:39 PM

Do you have a recommendation for an educational psychologist in Irvine area?  I do not think IUSD provides any resources in this regard?

We used Dr. David Palmer.  I don’t know about IUSD.

Thank you for the link. I just checked out his website and it seams exactly what I was looking for!
What would I have done without this blog and you guys

jenyfurg - 28 May 2009 02:01 PM

FYI, once kids are GATE tested, that is an IEP (Individual Education Plan) legally; just like those set up for a child with a learning disability.  This means you can require the schools to keep your child in more challenging classes, Gate program, etc.  So even if your child is not “recommended” for testing (sometimes kids that are advanced, but have behavior issues, are not recommended) you can request in writing that they are to get them into those programs.  So regardless of the age at which your child enters the school system, there are MANY resources out there to make the most out of their education (especially in Irvine schools)!  Thanks again guys - one more reason I am hooked on this site!

Oak Creek elementary has a program for high achieving kids that allows them to attend some classes in one grade higher, while beign in lower grade. They call them 1/2 class, 2/3, etc. They form classes like that only if there are enough students who will benefit from it.  I do not exactly how it works and if any classes like that will be offered this year.  With school budgets being cut I doubt there will be many resources avaialble.  Out teacher mentioned that next year the classes will accomodate at least 3 to 4 more students that the maximum allowed this year to deal with the crisis.
Also, i was told that there are absolutely no GATE programs in IUSD until 4th grade.  The testing is done at the end of 3rd grade. 
The idea of private testing is great though and I’m happy to get the refferal.

I have a November born and a December (2) born. November born is the youngest in her class, and one of the smartest. Hasn’t had any problems with learning. Oldest kid is an year and ten months older than mine, and several are older by a year. So, yes, sending kids late to school seems to be the trend.

new_to_irvine - 22 May 2009 01:36 PM

I’m curious about your thoughts and/or experiences with starting kindergarten or first grade earlier or later for boys.  I’m noticing that many parents here in Irvien are holding off their kids, especially boys to start kindergarten at 6 years old versus 5.  Is there any advantage in doing so? 
My son started kindergarten back in Los Angeles when he was still 4 years old. Now, since we moved to Irvine, my son is the youngest kid in his class with some of his classmates being almost 2 years older than him.  He is doing fine academically, but has a very hard time adjusting socially.  His teacher recommends us to go back to 1st grade so he can be with his age group.  I’m a bit shocked by the turn of events.  I think if it wasn’t such a widespread hodling off of kids to endter school we would not be in such situation.
What are your thoughts?

From personal experience, it depends on your kids social skills. I started school 1 year early and skipped third grade so I’ve always been with older kids and it didn’t bother me too much (maybe a little more in high school).  on the other hand, my brother wasn’t allowed to skip a grade because he wasn’t as likely to mix well with older kids.  We are both doing just fine today, so either way things work out.

Don’t see it as a stepback as if he has any social issues it can get worse later on, so he’d better be where he’s more comfortable.

Average boys age to start 1st grade is after marriage.

jenyfurg - 27 May 2009 07:55 PM

LOL - he is going to be taking a couple of courses at IVC this summer, but music & art courses.  I’m working with a charter program for him and he will be tested to enter college early.  We have to get a letter from his school recommending him to take the IVC classes, so on so forth… Because they don’t TEACH trig in 5th grade he is not.  However a friend of mine teaches Algebra at a Jr. College and had him play with some higher level equations (that baffled ME) and he understood the concepts and was “computing appropriately” she said.  (Sounded to me like she was referring to my computer, not my son!) But yes, keeping him engaged in class has been interesting.  The reading part is easy; I just send him with higher level books than they keep in his class.  So, I say challenge our kids more and pull back when they aren’t enjoying it!  I actually had a couple of teachers (early on) suggest testing him for ADHD and a host of other things because he “couldn’t focus” even though his work was always being completed very well.  He was bored and antsy - so I wonder in this culture of labeling and diagnosing EVERYthing with our kids, if we just aren’t allowing them to be challenged enough (appropriately of course).  I’m a single mom who has not been super pushy, and if anything I feel guilty for not getting my boys involved in more, so this is not my doing at all.  It is just how he’s “built.”

They have textbooks on just about everything (including Math) at the library.  Could just send a Math text to keep himself busy as necessary (ex. Bernake taught himself Calculus that way as they didn’t offer that in his small town high school).

Our pediatrician’s office recommends that kids with birthdays in March or later to hold off on starting kindergarten at age 5. So that would make the oldest ones 6.5 when starting kindergarten, and 7.5 when starting 1st grade. Their recommendations don’t distinguish between boys and girls.

Personally, I think it depends on the kid.

traceimage - 28 September 2009 10:37 PM

Our pediatrician’s office recommends that kids with birthdays in March or later to hold off on starting kindergarten at age 5. So that would make the oldest ones 6.5 when starting kindergarten, and 7.5 when starting 1st grade. Their recommendations don’t distinguish between boys and girls.

Personally, I think it depends on the kid.

I hadn’t heard that one before but it sounds about right, particularly for boys. Most of the boys I have seen may be academically ready but their ability to pay attention and sit still is still not there until they are at least 5.5 and maybe 6. It definitely depends on the kid, most of the preschools do an assessment at the end of the year, parents would do well to listen to the results.

Wow- March sounds a little early for me to have a cut-off, per your pediatrian’s advice, but I guess, to each his own.

My son turned 5 in May and just started kindergarten. 

I do think that CA’s cutoff is too late though- December is quite late.  Back in Chicago, the cutoff is August.