Funny that this discussion is going on.  I have been having a discussion via Facebook with a former co-worker and friend of mine who relocated to Dallas five years ago.  He settled in Flower Mound (small world). He is a native OC boy who attended CSUF, and stayed local until his mid-30’s and after being married w/kids.  Below is text of a message I got from him yesterday in response to “how do you like Dallas”—- he makes it sound pretty darn appealing to us family dudes:

“Interesting you had the opportunity to relocate to Dallas. I’m not sure how much of the neighborhoods and stuff you’ve seen here - but, it’s pretty darn fantastic. Think South County - but newer and with a whole lot more space.

I’ll tell you - some days, it still isn’t easy. But, at least our state isn’t in a financial quagmire.”

This is a really great guy who’s opinion I would trust just about as much as anyone I know.  Makes one think of Texas in a different way….but gawd, that heat!

CK - 21 May 2009 10:25 PM

Funny that this discussion is going on.  I have been having a discussion via Facebook with a former co-worker and friend of mine who relocated to Dallas five years ago.  He settled in Flower Mound (small world). He is a native OC boy who attended CSUF, and stayed local until his mid-30’s and after being married w/kids.  Below is text of a message I got from him yesterday in response to “how do you like Dallas”—- he makes it sound pretty darn appealing to us family dudes:

“Interesting you had the opportunity to relocate to Dallas. I’m not sure how much of the neighborhoods and stuff you’ve seen here - but, it’s pretty darn fantastic. Think South County - but newer and with a whole lot more space.

As far as moving…it’s a big deal when you have kids. We left both of our extended families in SoCal - but, we (both of us) still feel like we did the right thing.

Mostly, we feel that way because of the kids. It’s MUCH easier to raise them here and I don’t have that crushing “how are they going to make it” feeling when I think about them choosing a career and trying to buy a house.

When it got down to it, I projected what it would be like when they (hopefully) graduated college. They most likely wouldn’t earn enough to buy in SoCAL so…they’d probably chase an opportunity elsewhere. I *hoped* through this move we could establish a new “homebase” where even if they choose to be librarians….they can afford to own a home in a good area.

I’ll tell you - some days, it still isn’t easy. But, at least our state isn’t in a financial quagmire.”

This is a really great guy who’s opinion I would trust just about as much as anyone I know.  Makes one think of Texas in a different way….but gawd, that heat!

The heat is just a mental thing….block it out my man.  I sucked it up for 2 years in Vegas so it can be done.

Just about two years ago I went to Dallas on business. I spent a couple of days at a conference dowtown and then out to see some of my customers, one of which is an area called Highland Park. I couldn’t believe how charming this area was. It had a small little downtown with little shops and neat restaurants, including a Spanish eatery with a wine bar. I got to my appointment early and drove around the neighborhood. The houses were gorgeous. RE was not cheap there though. highland park home

CK - 21 May 2009 10:25 PM

Funny that this discussion is going on.  I have been having a discussion via Facebook with a former co-worker and friend of mine who relocated to Dallas five years ago.  He settled in Flower Mound (small world). He is a native OC boy who attended CSUF, and stayed local until his mid-30’s and after being married w/kids.  Below is text of a message I got from him yesterday in response to “how do you like Dallas”—- he makes it sound pretty darn appealing to us family dudes:

“Interesting you had the opportunity to relocate to Dallas. I’m not sure how much of the neighborhoods and stuff you’ve seen here - but, it’s pretty darn fantastic. Think South County - but newer and with a whole lot more space.

As far as moving…it’s a big deal when you have kids. We left both of our extended families in SoCal - but, we (both of us) still feel like we did the right thing.

Mostly, we feel that way because of the kids. It’s MUCH easier to raise them here and I don’t have that crushing “how are they going to make it” feeling when I think about them choosing a career and trying to buy a house.

When it got down to it, I projected what it would be like when they (hopefully) graduated college. They most likely wouldn’t earn enough to buy in SoCAL so…they’d probably chase an opportunity elsewhere. I *hoped* through this move we could establish a new “homebase” where even if they choose to be librarians….they can afford to own a home in a good area.

I’ll tell you - some days, it still isn’t easy. But, at least our state isn’t in a financial quagmire.”

This is a really great guy who’s opinion I would trust just about as much as anyone I know.  Makes one think of Texas in a different way….but gawd, that heat!

Having a $100k a year job here is enough to raise a family in a decent neighborhood.  There are a ton of two income families who are only a few years out of college that have an easy time affording a good house.  I can dig out the calculation, but there is an academic paper which calculated how many more years someone buying a median price home in LA had to work vs Dallas in order to afford the house price difference.

I also did an interesting calculation, “How many children does the house cost?”  The concept is simple.  Compare the cost of raising a child to buying a home.  If you can have a similar job in a city where homes are less expensive, it’s easier to afford 2 kids instead of 1, etc.  I calculated that I was able to afford two more children just by not purchasing in California near the peak.

MalibuRenter - 21 May 2009 02:01 AM

IrvineRenter - 20 May 2009 04:26 AM

It is good to see you are settling in.

I hope you enjoy the nice weather while it lasts. I lived in College Station, Texas for 3 summers, and I can tell you that Texas gets very hot and very humid. In fact, East Texas feels hotter and more humid than Florida. Dallas is probably similar to College Station in that occasionally the Gulf moisture is pushed to the east and it isn’t unbearably humid. Houston is always too humid.

How do you like the neon building art? Some people think it is really cool, and others think it is really tacky.

I always remember driving the freeways through Dallas, and you are at treetop level. I don’t know what that does for air and noise pollution, but it is a non-earthquake zone solution to traffic problems. San Antonio has many elevated freeways too.

Have you had any encounters with the local bugs? They have fire ants in Texas, and other creepy crawlies we don’t have in California.

I haven’t noticed much neon yet.  I will look for it though.  I’ve only seen neon signs on churches.

Our dog found a cockroach yesterday.  Don’t they know this a good neighborhood?

I’m not sure exactly how to describe it, but the freeway entrances and exits are designed in a vastly superior way here.  There is also a different way of doing U turns.  Perhaps I should take a camera with me and post photos.

They like their neon in Texas…

Dallas Skyline at night:

Austin Skyline at night:

usctrojanman29 - 21 May 2009 10:40 PM

The heat is just a mental thing….block it out my man.  I sucked it up for 2 years in Vegas so it can be done.

Sorry bro, I gotta disagree on that one.  The humidity just makes life miserable.  I was in AZ this past weekend, hiking around the grand canyon in 99 degree weather, and it wasn’t too bad.  Vegas was 103 degrees while I was there and that wasn’t bad either.  I’ve been in Florida in July and August and I lived in the midwest for a couple years, and there’s just no comparison.  If it wasn’t for the humidity I would probably still be living in Hawaii and mooching off my parents.

MalibuRenter - 22 May 2009 01:59 AM

Having a $100k a year job here is enough to raise a family in a decent neighborhood.  There are a ton of two income families who are only a few years out of college that have an easy time affording a good house.  I can dig out the calculation, but there is an academic paper which calculated how many more years someone buying a median price home in LA had to work vs Dallas in order to afford the house price difference.

You are spot on.  When we bought our second home in TX (sold house #1, rolled equity into house #2), our 2 little ones were still very young - 3 and 6 (the oldest was 15 or so).  Within a year, we paid off some additional debt, and my wife quit her well paying job to be a stay at home mom (not an easy job…..I’ve done it myself).  We couldn’t do the types of things we did with a dual income, but the time spent with our kids simply cannot be understated.

Given the cost of living in CA at the time we were a single income family in TX (~1996-2002), we would not have been able to do it.

I also did an interesting calculation, “How many children does the house cost?”  The concept is simple.  Compare the cost of raising a child to buying a home.  If you can have a similar job in a city where homes are less expensive, it’s easier to afford 2 kids instead of 1, etc.  I calculated that I was able to afford two more children just by not purchasing in California near the peak.

That’s a very unique perspective.  Not one we ever thought of when deciding to have children.  I will say that if we’d stayed in CA during the crash of the early 90’s, we likely would not have had our 3rd.

Trust me…..it’s never easy to afford kids.  And, no matter how old they get, you never stop paying for ‘em. 

Adam Ginsberg - 22 May 2009 08:03 PM

MalibuRenter - 22 May 2009 01:59 AM

Having a $100k a year job here is enough to raise a family in a decent neighborhood.  There are a ton of two income families who are only a few years out of college that have an easy time affording a good house.  I can dig out the calculation, but there is an academic paper which calculated how many more years someone buying a median price home in LA had to work vs Dallas in order to afford the house price difference.

You are spot on.  When we bought our second home in TX (sold house #1, rolled equity into house #2), our 2 little ones were still very young - 3 and 6 (the oldest was 15 or so).  Within a year, we paid off some additional debt, and my wife quit her well paying job to be a stay at home mom (not an easy job…..I’ve done it myself).  We couldn’t do the types of things we did with a dual income, but the time spent with our kids simply cannot be understated.

Given the cost of living in CA at the time we were a single income family in TX (~1996-2002), we would not have been able to do it.

I also did an interesting calculation, “How many children does the house cost?”  The concept is simple.  Compare the cost of raising a child to buying a home.  If you can have a similar job in a city where homes are less expensive, it’s easier to afford 2 kids instead of 1, etc.  I calculated that I was able to afford two more children just by not purchasing in California near the peak.

That’s a very unique perspective.  Not one we ever thought of when deciding to have children.  I will say that if we’d stayed in CA during the crash of the early 90’s, we likely would not have had our 3rd.

Trust me…..it’s never easy to afford kids.  And, no matter how old they get, you never stop paying for ‘em. 

I look at being able to afford kids as both involving money and time/attention.  Places like Los Angeles tend to leave you with less time and less disposable income.  In the early 1990’s, home prices went down and traffic got lighter.  The quality of life improved for those who weren’t already homeowners, and who still had decent jobs.  I went from straight out of school at a sucky job in 1989 to 2.5x the pay in 1993, as home prices were dropping.

Dallas is petfriendly in a different way.  Cats and small dogs probably live longer.  I haven’t seen any coyotes here.  In LA, I frequently saw them in Beverly Hills, Woodland Hills, and Malibu.

A Malibu saying:  “There are two kinds of cats here.  Indoor cats and ‘Have you seen Fluffy?’ posters”

While shopping at a few hardware stores over the past couple of weeks, I have noticed there are no day laborers hanging out in Dallas.  They seem ubiquitous in Los Angeles.

MR - How long have you guys been there now?

SoCal78 - 24 May 2009 06:10 PM

MR - How long have you guys been there now?

Came for interviews and started looking for a place a month ago.  Moved in two weeks ago.  Seems like we have been here a long time.

MalibuRenter - 24 May 2009 07:23 PM

SoCal78 - 24 May 2009 06:10 PM

MR - How long have you guys been there now?

Came for interviews and started looking for a place a month ago.  Moved in two weeks ago.  Seems like we have been here a long time.

How is the job market out in the Dallas area?

MalibuRenter - 24 May 2009 07:23 PM

SoCal78 - 24 May 2009 06:10 PM

MR - How long have you guys been there now?

Came for interviews and started looking http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forumsfor a place a month ago.  Moved in two weeks ago.  Seems like we have been here a long time.

How is the job market out in the Dallas area?

I am so glad this is a discussion. I am considering Dallas as well. I am currently over Ca. I just applied for a job where 140 people applied. They told me I was in the top 5 for second interview.  I have a job so its hard for me to make the leap unless I know I can find work.  I just renewed my lease but I just don’t feel this place is going to get better.

Ok back to the heat problem. How long is it? I grew up in the Desert surely its only for a few months. Whats the best way to get a job if your currently out of state? Is it possible people will hire you from out of state?

usctrojanman29 - 24 May 2009 08:29 PM

MalibuRenter - 24 May 2009 07:23 PM

SoCal78 - 24 May 2009 06:10 PM

MR - How long have you guys been there now?

Came for interviews and started looking http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forumsfor a place a month ago.  Moved in two weeks ago.  Seems like we have been here a long time.

How is the job market out in the Dallas area?

Well, the market here appears to be considerably better than Los Angeles.  While unemployment is around 7% in Dallas, it’s almost 11% in Los Angeles.  http://www.bls.gov/web/laummtrk.htm

LA has always had more part time, self employed, under the table, and others that don’t show up as unemployed in tough times.  I think the tremendous crash in tax receipts in CA shows how bad it is:

“Compared to April 2008, General Fund revenue in April
2009 was down $6.3 billion (-39%). The total for the three
largest taxes was below 2008 levels by $6.3 billion
(-40.3%). Sales taxes were $452
million lower (-50.9%) than last April,
and personal income taxes were
down $5.7 billion (-43.6%). Corporate
taxes were $142 million below (-8.6%)
April of 2008.”

http://www.sco.ca.gov/Press-Releases/2009/05-09summary.pdf

There are some mitigating factors.  The increase in sales taxes pushed some consumption slightly earlier to avoid the increase.  Other people reduced or eliminated their state tax withholdings when CA announced it might delay refund checks (better to send money later than sit around waiting for a questionable refund). 

However, there are likely some other things occurring. 1. It has been only lightly reported so far, but a lot of people are leaving CA.  I run into them all over Dallas.  Just tell people you’ve moved from CA, and they tell you they used to live there.  They are quite a range of income and social groups.  While there is no way tax changes as large as seen over 12 months could only be due to people leaving, it’s a very bad sign.  CA’s number one problem is the downward real estate spiral.  If only a few percent of homeowners and potential homeowners leave, it causes a much larger reduction in prices.  That causes consumption to drop even more, and will cause a great deal of local government employees to lose their jobs.  2. Many people are simply avoiding paying taxes, because they don’t have the income to pay it.  Property taxes are primarily a local govt concern in CA, but assessments are dropping and late payments are way up.  3. Homes are on strike.  Since late 2007, almost every home in CA has stopped providing cash to its owner for doing nothing.  Home equity extraction was disproportionately spent locally, and taxed locally.  5-10% of California’s GDP may have been from home equity extraction spending in 2003 to early 2007.  With indirect effects, it might have been 15%. 

What do I think will happen?  CA’s population and GDP will continue dropping at least through 2010, probably 2011.  As home prices bottom nearly 70% off peak in late 2010 or 2011, more people and companies will be tempted to come back.  The free houses in the desert could be a problem or opportunity.  If you can get the employers to come, it will be great.  It you are getting people moving there because they have no jobs and just want cheap housing, it will be awful.  CA will ultimately be pulled out of its recession by something besides real estate.  Given its fragmented economy, the growth will come in many places.  The job growth will eventually come from the types of jobs which were run out of state or into the immense tracts in the desert: jobs for middle class people who wanted to be homeowners.  If you have a good job in LA, everything will seem to be cheap: houses, landscapers, food, etc.

TX will do somewhat better.  However, the unreported story here is high end homes accumulating in the foreclosure pipeline.  Nothing like CA, but there is a lot of pressure on homes above about$500k.  No jumbo conforming in Dallas.

wendyinoc - 25 May 2009 02:44 AM

I am so glad this is a discussion. I am considering Dallas as well. I am currently over Ca. I just applied for a job where 140 people applied. They told me I was in the top 5 for second interview.  I have a job so its hard for me to make the leap unless I know I can find work.  I just renewed my lease but I just don’t feel this place is going to get better.

Ok back to the heat problem. How long is it? I grew up in the Desert surely its only for a few months. Whats the best way to get a job if your currently out of state? Is it possible people will hire you from out of state?

I was hired from out of state, by a firm that I knew even while still in CA.  It’s always risky to move and then search for a job. 

Yes, CA will not get better for at least a few years.  I have a job that I could do from TX, CA, and several other states.  Seriously considering staying here.  People here have a much shorter list of things they hate than in LA/OC.  Here, it’s pretty much the summer weather and bugs.  Some people complain about persistent wind.  The heat is supposed to be bad from late May through mid September.  While many people insist that it is commonly extremely humid that time of year, and that it doesn’t cool off at night, I don’t see that in the weather records.  Nighttime temps are generally 20 degrees cooler than daytime. http://www.wunderground.com/NORMS/DisplayNORMS.asp?AirportCode=KDFW&SafeCityName=Dallas-Fort_Worth_International&StateCode=TX&Units=none&IATA=DFW

Los Angeles hotspot Woodland Hills gets about as hot in Summer, but nighttime temps are 26 degrees cooler than daytime.  When people in Dallas say it’s hot, they seem to be comparing it to Santa Monica, San Francisco, or Newport Beach.

MalibuRenter - 24 May 2009 03:56 PM

Dallas is petfriendly in a different way.  Cats and small dogs probably live longer.  I haven’t seen any coyotes here.  In LA, I frequently saw them in Beverly Hills, Woodland Hills, and Malibu.

It depends. Our 14+yo beagle seems to be doing much better, health-wise, in SoCal than in TX.  The heat/humidity really didn’t help her, or our boston terrier.

MalibuRenter - 24 May 2009 05:58 PM

While shopping at a few hardware stores over the past couple of weeks, I have noticed there are no day laborers hanging out in Dallas.  They seem ubiquitous in Los Angeles.

You must not be looking in the right place(s).  They’re around.  Lewisville, I35, Huffines Plaza, next to the Enterprise car rental place.  I do recall seeing them in various parts of Dallas, closer to the city center.

MalibuRenter - 25 May 2009 05:44 AM

While many people insist that it is commonly extremely humid that time of year, and that it doesn’t cool off at night, I don’t see that in the weather records.  Nighttime temps are generally 20 degrees cooler than daytime. http://www.wunderground.com/NORMS/DisplayNORMS.asp?AirportCode=KDFW&SafeCityName=Dallas-Fort_Worth_International&StateCode=TX&Units=none&IATA=DFW.

You haven’t been there long enough.  From 16+ years of living experience, there are many nights the temp will only drop a few marginal degrees.  It gets hot and humid, and stays hot and humid.

When we had our pool built in 1998, Dallas had 29 days straight of 100+ temps.  The fourth longest string recorded.

Adam Ginsberg - 25 May 2009 08:20 PM

MalibuRenter - 24 May 2009 05:58 PM

While shopping at a few hardware stores over the past couple of weeks, I have noticed there are no day laborers hanging out in Dallas.  They seem ubiquitous in Los Angeles.

You must not be looking in the right place(s).  They’re around.  Lewisville, I35, Huffines Plaza, next to the Enterprise car rental place.  I do recall seeing them in various parts of Dallas, closer to the city center.

That seems to go along with what I see when I watch the show “Cops” - Dallas edition. From those shows, parts of the city do look rough and have some interesting folks there.

I have come across an interesting comparison.  Irving, TX versus Irvine, CA.

Population: Irvine 201,160, Irving 199,505.  Almost identical.
Density: Irvine 4356 people per square mile, Irving 2968.  As you would expect, Irvine has crammed more housing units in per square mile.
Median household income: Irvine $98,923, Irving $45,337. 
Median home price, early 2009; Irvine $540k, Irving $160k.
Drop from peak: Irvine about 33%, Irving about 20%.

Both areas are master planned.  Irving has an early example of the large master planning in Las Colinas.  Oddly, both contain a major street called MacArthur. 

Lots of corporate headquarters in both.  Irvine has Allergan, In N Out, Standard Pacific, and Taco Bell.  Irving has Exxon, Fluor, and Chuck E Cheese.  Interestingly, Fluor was headquartered in OC just north of Irvine until 2005.  They used to be a client of mine. 

Anyone here been to both places?

If anyone wants to check out LAX to DFW air is Only $124 roundtrip plus tax!! It just dropped today on US Airways and I can tell you as a travel agent this will sell out fast.  I picked July to check out the heat.

MalibuRenter - 28 May 2009 01:48 AM

I have come across an interesting comparison.  Irving, TX versus Irvine, CA.

Population: Irvine 201,160, Irving 199,505.  Almost identical.
Density: Irvine 4356 people per square mile, Irving 2968.  As you would expect, Irvine has crammed more housing units in per square mile.
Median household income: Irvine $98,923, Irving $45,337. 
Median home price, early 2009; Irvine $540k, Irving $160k.
Drop from peak: Irvine about 33%, Irving about 20%.

Both areas are master planned.  Irving has an early example of the large master planning in Las Colinas.  Oddly, both contain a major street called MacArthur. 

Lots of corporate headquarters in both.  Irvine has Allergan, In N Out, Standard Pacific, and Taco Bell.  Irving has Exxon, Fluor, and Chuck E Cheese.  Interestingly, Fluor was headquartered in OC just north of Irvine until 2005.  They used to be a client of mine. 

Anyone here been to both places?

I live in Irvine, and have been to Irving many times.

You forgot to mention the following important details:
- irving school district is horrible - day and night comparison with Irvine.  This means you have to pay private school there.
- Though texas has no income tax, real estate tax is double what it is in Irvine ( 3% vs. 1.5%).
- a 3500 sq ft home in the gated community of Las Colinas costs nearly the same as it is in Irvine. 
- a 3500 sq ft home in the non gated newer community of Las Colinas costs $500K, with a lot size of 6000 sq ft.
- You can find cheap homes in Irving, but then you probably need metal bars on your windows.  did you check their crime rate???

Yes there are a lot of corp. HQs in Irving, but most of the employees don’t live in Irving. If they do, they have no kids, and they live at the gated expensive community by the TCP course near the four seasons.

MalibuRenter - 25 May 2009 05:44 AM

wendyinoc - 25 May 2009 02:44 AM

I am so glad this is a discussion. I am considering Dallas as well. I am currently over Ca. I just applied for a job where 140 people applied. They told me I was in the top 5 for second interview.  I have a job so its hard for me to make the leap unless I know I can find work.  I just renewed my lease but I just don’t feel this place is going to get better.

Ok back to the heat problem. How long is it? I grew up in the Desert surely its only for a few months. Whats the best way to get a job if your currently out of state? Is it possible people will hire you from out of state?

I was hired from out of state, by a firm that I knew even while still in CA.  It’s always risky to move and then search for a job. 

While many people insist that it is commonly extremely humid that time of year, and that it doesn’t cool off at night, I don’t see that in the weather records.  Nighttime temps are generally 20 degrees cooler than daytime.

Los Angeles hotspot Woodland Hills gets about as hot in Summer, but nighttime temps are 26 degrees cooler than daytime.  When people in Dallas say it’s hot, they seem to be comparing it to Santa Monica, San Francisco, or Newport Beach.

MalibuRenter, weather in Dallas is probably among the worst in the county.  You will find out soon enough.  That doesn’t mean Dallas is not a good place to raise a family for many people.

In the summer time, trust me, it seldom cools off at night.  And it is dry heat, not humid like Houston. And it has storms often.  Winter time, it can get really cold, and form ice on the road.

Regarding the weather: A few years ago, I was in Houston for 3 days. This was in August. It rained and sunny at the same time! Not kidding. The heat from the sun caused vapor to rise from the asphalt. Talk about humidity. I looked like an idiot for wearing a business suit.

MR - take a drive around Irving.  There are some very nice areas (just a tad south of the 114, north of the 114) - Hackberry Creek (nice homes, gated, but lots of foundation issues due to expansive soil conditions not being handled properly), Cottonwood Ranch (across from the 4 Seasons, similar foundation problems to HC), etc.  South of the 183 is an older, more exclusive area (near MacArthur Blvd), but also has some real old, crappy areas.  In reality, not much different than SoCal.

You’ll notice, in many areas, there is a more clear separation between residential, multi-family and commercial/industrial, especially in the newer neighborhoods.

irvine123 - 28 May 2009 12:46 PM

In the summer time, trust me, it seldom cools off at night.  And it is dry heat, not humid like Houston. And it has storms often.  Winter time, it can get really cold, and form ice on the road.

Sorry, irvine123, but you are completely incorrect about it being a “dry heat” in Dallas.  While the humidity levels aren’t as bad as Houston, it’s damn ugly in the summer.

As for winter weather, it’s more than just “forming ice on the road”.  In 1993, I recall an ice storm covered the ground with about 3” of ice.  Not snow, ice….lot’s of it.  A nice thing, however, is it rarely stays long.  Typically, within a day or two, much of it is gone, as the temps come back to a more normal level.