So my friend went to view a propert at Cityplace in Santa Ana.

Three story townhome, pretty nice entry, 1,817 square feet. Original list price was $399K, went back this week and the builder raised it to $425,000! In this economy? Is he on crack?

The kitchen is tiny, its like the size of a closet. I made sure they knew about it too. Anyway, my friend put in an offer of $350K. One of the sales reps heard this and walked away.

The nerve some of these people have, still drinking the cool-aid. This is Santa Ana, not Irvine!

http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/3509/

Your analysis is correct.  They are indeed on crack.  The deepest denial I have seen in, well, ever.  They too will break.

My wife and I are strongly considering the City Place, but definitely at a lower price.  The build quality looks better than most, great layout for half the plans, a few misses on the designs, but overall pretty great.  The original asking prices were insane and I thought the auction asking prices were fair, but given this economy, housing market, surrounding home values, and an apparent lack of interest, I’m surprised they won’t entertain your offer much less raise their asking price.  The location is almost perfect for us.  My parents live in Huntington Harbour, my wife’s parents live in Garden Grove, we love Mother’s Market and all the nearby retail, we go to Disneyland 3X/month, and we seem to drive by the City Place area 3X/week.  The downside is that my wife works off Jamboree/Main and the 5 and 55 drive is pretty awful.  Her current commute is 3mi and takes no more than 10 minutes on a bad day. 

With Fortune magazine projecting a ~24% decline in real estate value for Santa Ana in 2009, I will wait on the sidelines.  In the meantime, I’ll renew my lease with Pinnacle at MacArthur Place for 10% less than the previous term.

My friend ended up offering for the Model home of Plan 2 for Courtyards, 1,315 sq feet for $360,000 including closing costs, upgraded flooring, all appliances and washer/dryer.

Doesn’t include any furniture though. What do you guys think.

Shooby - 13 January 2009 11:47 PM

My friend ended up offering for the Model home of Plan 2 for Courtyards, 1,315 sq feet for $360,000 including closing costs, upgraded flooring, all appliances and washer/dryer.

Doesn’t include any furniture though. What do you guys think.

Your friend did very well. I am surprised to hear a majority of the buyers are young Asians. I see some young Asian parents with strollers by the Mothers Market. City Place was designed by two different architects. The Lofts facing the retails was designed by a famous architect from the Westside and the 2 Townhome projects behind were designed by WHA a local production home architect from OC. Every first Friday of the month the lofts with retail space below have open house with free foods.

bkshopr - 14 January 2009 12:05 AM

I am surprised to hear a majority of the buyers are young Asians.

I’m surprised too.  Bob Bisno’s business model for the past 30 years has been to raise investment to buy and restore blighted properties.  I think most Asians do not have the intestinal fortitude to be the “pioneers” of a revitalization effort.  That’s why we like to live in TIC villages.

High Gravity - 14 January 2009 12:32 AM

bkshopr - 14 January 2009 12:05 AM

I am surprised to hear a majority of the buyers are young Asians.

I’m surprised too.  Bob Bisno’s business model for the past 30 years has been to raise investment to buy and restore blighted properties.  I think most Asians do not have the intestinal fortitude to be the “pioneers” of a revitalization effort.  That’s why we like to live in TIC villages.

The location is certainly very appealing to Asians with relatives living in Little Saigon 8 minutes away or Rowland Heights 20 minutes and Fullerton 10 minutes. It is centrally located with good accessibility to freeways and good Chinese foods in Irvine, Westminster, and Rowland Heights. The school district is not Santa Ana but Orange. It is interesting to track this project because of its appeal to Asian buyers.

The homes here are hit or miss. I think it’s appealing for those asian buyers because you can easily have a shop on the 1st floor while living above your business. Seems like a practical Asian thing to do.

However, some of the models here make me scratch my head and ask, what were they thinking?

It’s nice though, walking distance to the market, restaurant, bars, Main Place mall, close to the freeways, etc etc.

I’m almost thinking she should have offered $350,000.

Shooby - 14 January 2009 02:50 AM

The homes here are hit or miss. I think it’s appealing for those asian buyers because you can easily have a shop on the 1st floor while living above your business. Seems like a practical Asian thing to do.

However, some of the models here make me scratch my head and ask, what were they thinking?

It’s nice though, walking distance to the market, restaurant, bars, Main Place mall, close to the freeways, etc etc.

I’m almost thinking she should have offered $350,000.

Pinkberry, Coffee Bean and walk distance to Nordstrom. Access to 5, 55, 57, and 22 is super fast in less than 2 minutes. The best part is Tmare will be your neighbor across the park.

bkshopr - 14 January 2009 03:20 AM

Shooby - 14 January 2009 02:50 AM

The homes here are hit or miss. I think it’s appealing for those asian buyers because you can easily have a shop on the 1st floor while living above your business. Seems like a practical Asian thing to do.

However, some of the models here make me scratch my head and ask, what were they thinking?

It’s nice though, walking distance to the market, restaurant, bars, Main Place mall, close to the freeways, etc etc.

I’m almost thinking she should have offered $350,000.

Pinkberry, Coffee Bean and walk distance to Nordstrom. Access to 5, 55, 57, and 22 is super fast in less than 2 minutes. The best part is Tmare will be your neighbor across the park.

And maybe someday No_Vas will stop driving around the neighborhood and actually buy something.    (Did I mention the neighborhood pot limit poker games?)

Just remember its still Santa Ana. Not Irvine.

Was at McCormick and Schmicks with a client last week for Happy Hour.
We pull in the parking lot and see a homeless guy on a bike
going between the cars looking for unlocked vehicles. I called Orange PD
which reminded me its Santa Ana. In talking to the Bartender.
Its a “Hot Lot” for car burglers. Beware.

While Mainplace mall has some of the same stores as nearby malls, the clientele is not the same.  Walking around Mainplace feels like Stonewood mall in Downey.

I agree. I always feel different going to Main place. Even Brea Mall is better

Sorry to be negative but I think 360K for the 1315 sq ft. unit is way too much. The location is great, no two ways about it (walking distance to Pinkberry AND Barnes and Noble! AND Arriba mmmmm ). But that’s a steep price for an attached condo - over $260/sq. ft.

FairEconomist - 15 January 2009 05:17 AM

Sorry to be negative but I think 360K for the 1315 sq ft. unit is way too much. The location is great, no two ways about it (walking distance to Pinkberry AND Barnes and Noble! AND Arriba mmmmm ). But that’s a steep price for an attached condo - over $260/sq. ft.

I agree, it’s way too high. I think it was said before, but I’ll say it again: I just don’t see who would want to live in these condos when they can live in a nice home in a nice neighborhood just across the street in Park Santiago.

We visited this development today and can see the attraction of this development to the young Asian demographic, but personally, there are way too many stairs.  I don’t see how they could bring furniture up the narrow stairways.  There is one model where you enter the front door, then have to go up stairs that lead directly to a toilet.  That must be some kind of feng shui no no.  The lofts were interesting but too narrow.  The first floor of the lofts is too tiny.  $515,000 asking price for the lofts is insane.  But even though I wouldn’t buy there, if they cut prices by 25% I think they’d sell out fairly quickly and it’d be a decent value for first-time buyers.  I’d say waiting for future lower priced resales would be the better way to go than pay the developer’s current asking prices.  No way they would sell out at current prices.  Also the proposed highrise is right next to the development; I wouldn’t want to be so close to a highrise, if that ever becomes reality.  I also checked out the Barker lofts in downtown L.A. in the funky arts district near Little Tokyo and skid row, wow are those prices still insane.  $600k for 1500 sf.

tmare - 15 January 2009 07:22 AM

FairEconomist - 15 January 2009 05:17 AM

Sorry to be negative but I think 360K for the 1315 sq ft. unit is way too much. The location is great, no two ways about it (walking distance to Pinkberry AND Barnes and Noble! AND Arriba mmmmm ). But that’s a steep price for an attached condo - over $260/sq. ft.

I agree, it’s way too high. I think it was said before, but I’ll say it again: I just don’t see who would want to live in these condos when they can live in a nice home in a nice neighborhood just across the street in Park Santiago.

For less even.

Agreed on the too many stairs business. I think three stories is too many for anything smaller than a mansion for exactly that reason. IMO a 3 story building with normal-sized living areas should be apartment/brownstone style, with every unit on one floor and a shared stair. But, the primo prices were for having your “own home” which resulted in all these staircase collections.

I have seen some developments where individual units were two-story stacked into a four-story building. That seems workable, and allows a nice loft feel with cathedral ceilings. I have no idea whether that actually works out financially. The preserve in Chino has a development with six units all interwoven in one building which produces much nicer floor plans. Since individual units don’t have to have every floor the same size, you don’t get the wierd shapes and size you see in the smallish 3-story townhomes. I think there’s something like that in Columbus Grove but I’m not sure.

Camden Place in Columbus Square.

I was thinking of Cambridge Lane at Columbus Square. Camden Place is a more conventional townhome where any given piece of ground belongs to at most one home. I did like Camden Place more than most 3-stories; I thought the largest plan had a pretty good layout in spite of all the stairs.

The Preserve has better layouts than Cambridge Lane because the Preserve has one big solid building while the Cambridge Lane design wraps the overall bulding around a small courtyard. As a result, the Cambridge Lane design isn’t as interlaced and so the layouts are more constrained and awkward. Still better than a typical 3-story of that size, though.

Went back to City Place with my friend today, after talking with the sellers, I (subtly) steered her clear from buying this property.

I don’t think the sellers were too happy though.

Shooby - 18 January 2009 12:56 AM

Went back to City Place with my friend today, after talking with the sellers, I (subtly) steered her clear from buying this property.

I don’t think the sellers were too happy though.

Suckers are hard to find and you stole one from them.  Damn right they weren’t happy!

my husband and I too have been looking at CityPlace.  We have been sitting on the sidelines waiting for the builder to come to a reality check.  Between City Place and Old Town Tustin’s “live work lofts” it seems the denial phase is rooted pretty deep.  We drive by and even though the sales reps tell us they are selling, who ever has bought are not quick to move in.

as a side note:
I like the look of lofts, the contemporary design and openness, after looking at houses in the area its hard to find that look without a lot of re-work.  Anyone know some secret area in OC that might offer up an alternative?

dizzle - 19 January 2009 08:13 AM

my husband and I too have been looking at CityPlace.  We have been sitting on the sidelines waiting for the builder to come to a reality check.  Between City Place and Old Town Tustin’s “live work lofts” it seems the denial phase is rooted pretty deep.  We drive by and even though the sales reps tell us they are selling, who ever has bought are not quick to move in.

as a side note:
I like the look of lofts, the contemporary design and openness, after looking at houses in the area its hard to find that look without a lot of re-work.  Anyone know some secret area in OC that might offer up an alternative?

Sounds like you found what you want, just wait and the prices will come way down. I live in the area and what you are looking for is the opposite of the houses in my neighborhood, but good luck to you!

After seeing the Cityplace and Barker (L.A.downtown) lofts, I thought it’d be unique and “cool” to live in an unconventional loft, but the problem is developers are selling loft type units at premiums to conventional floorplans when loft living is actually less convenient than traditional townhomes (they have no dividers between rooms, exposed ductwork, etc.).  I don’t know much about housing history, but seems to me lofts like in NY and SF were originally low priced places converted from industrial use to living space, so loft living was originally cheaper than traditional living just like high rise living was cheaper than SFR living in the city.  Somehow developers in the OC decided they’d do things the other way, like making OC high rises more expensive than SFR and making loft living more expensive than townhomes.  Although loft living seems kind of unique and interesting, I’m not wanting to pay a premium for it, I’m waiting for the air to go out of the developer balloons and wait for loft/high rise living to be lower than traditional housing like the good old days, or if not, resales ought to settle the matter.

Loft living originally started from old warehouse conversions occupying prime location convenient to downtown. Structural system supporting many of the multistory structure allowed for minimum modification. In order to negotiate for light many units were deep ended with just one side with light. The elevator core was in the middle of the building. The active spaces encompassing living and dining were oriented to the perimeter to take advantage of light and ventilation. Bedroom per code also required light and ventilation as well. Some lofts would dedicate some perimeter for a bedroom but the economic formula mostly would not permit that as a result bedrooms “area” was situated away from window and must have no physical barriers such as floor to ceiling walls and door in order to satisfy the code.

This is the primary reason lofts are open plan. Privacy is partitioned by a piece of furniture such as a tall bookcase. Bedrooms are the biggest curse of lofts therefore few actually have them. This is not a product for families with children.

The lofts at City Place designed by Steven Ehrlich have good expression of forms and materials. There are 2 plan types. One is a 20’ wide plan and another is 13’ wide. The 20’ wide plan has a 2 car wide alley loaded garage while the narrow one is 2 cars in tandem position. The wide units were desirable and most were sold way prior to the auction at full asking price with a few at less desirable business locations facing Park Santiago without parking.

Bisno made a very bad decision that cripple the success of his loft project by having the narrow units. All of the narrow units were unsold. For every 3 undesirable narrow units he could have sold 2 wide units at full asking price. Greed is not a good thing and this should be a lesson for both sellers and buyers. The lesson for the buyers is not wait until the critical moment when the prices totally bottomed out because the best inventories by then would just a few to choose from.

Homeowners bought the wider loft units mostly are for business and few are actually owner occupied for living. Bisno also made a second critical error by hiring a cheap architect WHA for the 2 adjacent townhouse projects. The designs are inferior compared to the lofts and both sat for a long time without buyers’ interest.

Surprisingly Asians have been looking at these projects and certainly unexpected as the targeted demographic.