acpme - 04 December 2008 07:16 PM

i know this thread is starting to get derailed and i’m about to contribute to it, but…

i use the starwood preferred guest amex card.  the benefits are the best i’ve found for those who like traveling.  as a gold member you get perks like automatic room upgrades, late checkout, priority seating at hotel restaurants, with no blackout dates.  next month we have to go to sf and i couldnt find major hotel chain with a room downtown for under $450/night.  i tried a lowball bid on priceline of $200 and was rejected.  priceline suggested i try at least $400/night.  i just used 10,000 points to book at the westin in union sq.  a hefty chunk of points (assuming on avg each point cost $1 of spending) but at a value of $400, the points are equivalent to 4% cash back.  and in other locations the points go a lot further.  we spent a wk on the big island this yr with a mix of cash and points—$60/night+4000 points.  in that case the points saved me $240 (room rate was $300) for $4000 of spending, or equivalent to 6% cash back.

i run as many expenses and billpays as i can through the card, and we’re very good about not getting sucked into the “buy to get the points” mentality.  in total our normal cc usage basically like having a free timeshare every yr.  i rarely pay for hotels out of pocket because there’s a starwood property almost everywhere i go, and in the off occassion i dont use my points, i just book the cheapest room avail and get an upgrade anyway.  it’s a great card.  </end sales pitch>

That’s a great way of working the system and if I only visited Vegas a handful of things a year I would definitely use a similar stategy.  However, I travel to Las Vegas a few times a month for work and to see my dad so I love having a home that I can stay in to relax after coming back from the strip or a day at work.  I’m also able to take the interest and property tax expenses for the home on my tax return since I’m on the loan and on title which helps lower my tax liability.

skek - 04 December 2008 06:31 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 06:07 PM

skek - 04 December 2008 02:36 AM

City Center—you’ve still got a number of condo options to choose from.

Those places look sweet.
That’s what I’m looking for but with Palms, Caesars, MB or other affiliation.
I’ve never been to or heard of the Aria Hotel and Casino.
Don’t get me wrong, place looks nice.

Looks like Aria maybe affiliated with those Hotels, is that right?

The entire project is a joint venture between MGM Mirage and Dubai World, so they are all affiliated and well funded.  (Apparently, the development next door is bust-o.)  They are all new concepts/brands, including Aria, except for the Mandarin and Harmon residences.

Are you talking about Cosmopolitan?  I think the bank stepped in to finish out the project earlier this year.

usctrojanman29 - 04 December 2008 07:16 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 02:14 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:55 AM

IrvineRealtor - 04 December 2008 12:50 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:27 AM

I’ve heard LV home prices are really down. Could someone who is familiar with LV tell me where to look? I mean what cities nearbly. I’m looking for a nice 3 BR/2B SFR with at least decent granite counter tops - 

I think trojanman was looking for an investment partner there.  PM him.

I don’t want to partner with anybody.

I was thinking the same thing.
A little different criteria though.
Maybe one of those condos affiliated with the Palms Hotel.
Where you get to use and have access to all the amenities of the hotel like the pool etc.
I play and stay at the Hotel at MB, don’t know if they offer something like that?

You want to buy a condotel?  Palms Place is a condotel.  If you are interested in a true condo, take a look at the Panarama (sp?), Sky, or Turnberry condos.

Regarding the condotel suggestions you posted, what’s the pricing and market look like?
Are they affordable or over priced in your opinion?
Since I don’t know the market, I’m relying on your expertise here.

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 07:39 PM

usctrojanman29 - 04 December 2008 07:16 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 02:14 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:55 AM

IrvineRealtor - 04 December 2008 12:50 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:27 AM

I’ve heard LV home prices are really down. Could someone who is familiar with LV tell me where to look? I mean what cities nearbly. I’m looking for a nice 3 BR/2B SFR with at least decent granite counter tops - 

I think trojanman was looking for an investment partner there.  PM him.

I don’t want to partner with anybody.

I was thinking the same thing.
A little different criteria though.
Maybe one of those condos affiliated with the Palms Hotel.
Where you get to use and have access to all the amenities of the hotel like the pool etc.
I play and stay at the Hotel at MB, don’t know if they offer something like that?

You want to buy a condotel?  Palms Place is a condotel.  If you are interested in a true condo, take a look at the Panarama (sp?), Sky, or Turnberry condos.

Regarding the condotel suggestions you posted, what’s the pricing and market look like?
Are they affordable or over priced in your opinion?
Since I don’t know the market, I’m relying on your expertise here.

Pricing needs to come down since the fundamentals of condotels are based upon the hotel room rates which have come down a lot recently and will continue to due so with the opening of other Vegas projects (Encore and City Center).  To give you an idea, the Trump project has about 1,200 units and only about 200 of those units have closed since the construction was completed back in April.  Transactions for condotels has slowed down to a crawl due to difficulty in obtaining financing.  Even if you were to find condotel somewhat attractive you will have a huge issue finding a lender to finance the purchase as the property is looked as an investment property (you can’t convince the lender that it will be your secondary residence/vacation home).  So you would be looking at having to put down 40-50% down and having an interest rate of 7-8%+ compared to a rate slightly over 5% if you bought a home or regular condo.

usctrojanman29 - 04 December 2008 07:45 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 07:39 PM

usctrojanman29 - 04 December 2008 07:16 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 02:14 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:55 AM

IrvineRealtor - 04 December 2008 12:50 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:27 AM

I’ve heard LV home prices are really down. Could someone who is familiar with LV tell me where to look? I mean what cities nearbly. I’m looking for a nice 3 BR/2B SFR with at least decent granite counter tops - 

I think trojanman was looking for an investment partner there.  PM him.

I don’t want to partner with anybody.

I was thinking the same thing.
A little different criteria though.
Maybe one of those condos affiliated with the Palms Hotel.
Where you get to use and have access to all the amenities of the hotel like the pool etc.
I play and stay at the Hotel at MB, don’t know if they offer something like that?

You want to buy a condotel?  Palms Place is a condotel.  If you are interested in a true condo, take a look at the Panarama (sp?), Sky, or Turnberry condos.

Regarding the condotel suggestions you posted, what’s the pricing and market look like?
Are they affordable or over priced in your opinion?
Since I don’t know the market, I’m relying on your expertise here.

Pricing needs to come down since the fundamentals of condotels are based upon the hotel room rates which have come down a lot recently and will continue to due so with the opening of other Vegas projects (Encore and City Center).  To give you an idea, the Trump project has about 1,200 units and only about 200 of those units have closed since the construction was completed back in April.  Transactions for condotels has slowed down to a crawl due to difficulty in obtaining financing.  Even if you were to find condotel somewhat attractive you will have a huge issue finding a lender to finance the purchase as the property is looked as an investment property (you can’t convince the lender that it will be your secondary residence/vacation home).  So you would be looking at having to put down 40-50% down and having an interest rate of 7-8%+ compared to a rate slightly over 5% if you bought a home or regular condo.

Excellent post!
Now we’re getting somewhere, you did not disappoint. 
So what you’re basically saying is that prices will continue to soften and come down from current levels.
Is that right?
Wasn’t aware of the funding issue.
How do we get it financed as a second home/vacation property?
I agree with you, financing under commercial, higher rate with more money down will not work.

.

.

skek - 04 December 2008 07:59 PM

Hormiguero - 04 December 2008 06:47 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 06:07 PM

The entire project is a joint venture between MGM Mirage and Dubai World, so they are all affiliated and well funded.

MGM Mirage stock has had a tough year.

I’m not sure the market is as confident in their funding as some might be.

MGM Mirage provides the Vegas creds, Dubai World provides the money.  I wouldn’t worry about them.  For the same reason, those prices are sticky—they aren’t chasing the market down ... yet.  They also sold a number prior to the bust (I think Mandarin is sold out, but don’t quote me) so they’ve got some momentum to help carry them through.  Still, I suspect many of the early buyers are flippers who will never close escrow.  The market has a way of prevailing, even over Dubai oil money.

Sorry to disappoint, ten, but I’m not buying in Vegas.  I agree with acpme—when I go, I’ll stay at the resorts.  I’m a family man, now.  Don’t need a crash pad in Vegas.  Hawaii and South Beach, I’ll take.  Maybe a place in the mountains—Whistler sounds nice.  And top it off with a ranch outside of Jackson Hole.  Dreams, dreams, dreams…

No problem, I understand.
There’s still Maui.
Keep me posted on Maui digs and if I hear anything promising I will reciprocate.
Thanks for the suggestion regarding Vegas.
It’s what I was looking for,
SCtrojanman seems to understand the market and will take over and ride point on it

they’re a bit too far along to mothball at this point.  not sure of the latest news but few months ago there were rumors mgm mirage wanted to step in and integrate the project with the city center.  cosmopolitan sits on a lot between city ctr and bellagio.  starwood would have JV’d or operate some of the properties.

all of this is before the mkts crashed and stock prices of hotel and gaming companies are down 50-75%, far worse than the overall mkt.  they probably don’t have the balance sheets to take this on now.

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 07:56 PM

usctrojanman29 - 04 December 2008 07:45 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 07:39 PM

usctrojanman29 - 04 December 2008 07:16 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 02:14 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:55 AM

IrvineRealtor - 04 December 2008 12:50 AM

WestparkRenter - 04 December 2008 12:27 AM

I’ve heard LV home prices are really down. Could someone who is familiar with LV tell me where to look? I mean what cities nearbly. I’m looking for a nice 3 BR/2B SFR with at least decent granite counter tops - 

I think trojanman was looking for an investment partner there.  PM him.

I don’t want to partner with anybody.

I was thinking the same thing.
A little different criteria though.
Maybe one of those condos affiliated with the Palms Hotel.
Where you get to use and have access to all the amenities of the hotel like the pool etc.
I play and stay at the Hotel at MB, don’t know if they offer something like that?

You want to buy a condotel?  Palms Place is a condotel.  If you are interested in a true condo, take a look at the Panarama (sp?), Sky, or Turnberry condos.

Regarding the condotel suggestions you posted, what’s the pricing and market look like?
Are they affordable or over priced in your opinion?
Since I don’t know the market, I’m relying on your expertise here.

Pricing needs to come down since the fundamentals of condotels are based upon the hotel room rates which have come down a lot recently and will continue to due so with the opening of other Vegas projects (Encore and City Center).  To give you an idea, the Trump project has about 1,200 units and only about 200 of those units have closed since the construction was completed back in April.  Transactions for condotels has slowed down to a crawl due to difficulty in obtaining financing.  Even if you were to find condotel somewhat attractive you will have a huge issue finding a lender to finance the purchase as the property is looked as an investment property (you can’t convince the lender that it will be your secondary residence/vacation home).  So you would be looking at having to put down 40-50% down and having an interest rate of 7-8%+ compared to a rate slightly over 5% if you bought a home or regular condo.

Excellent post!
Now we’re getting somewhere, you did not disappoint. 
So what you’re basically saying is that prices will continue to soften and come down from current levels.
Is that right?
Wasn’t aware of the funding issue.
How do we get it financed as a second home/vacation property?
I agree with you, financing under commercial, higher rate with more money down will not work.

Glad I can help, having lived in Vegas for a few years plus having done business there for 6+ years has helped me to understand some of the ins and outs of the market. 

To answer your first question, yes the pricing on condotels will continue to soften as the current prices don’t reflect the decreased room rates seen in the past 2-3 months.  Again, a lot of investors/flippers picked up these condotels towards the peak of the real estate market.  Think about it, why would a hotel/developer offer a condotel to the general public?  The answer is because they can basically have the public finance the construction of the hotel rooms via the sales and then make money on the back-end by the revenue splits (usually 50-50), HOA fees, and other maintenance charges.

To get a property financed as a second home, the property needs to be an SFR or a traditional condo where there is not an option to put the unit into a rental pool.  There are a handful of highrise condo projects that aren’t condotels at or near the strip.  As long as you don’t a property in Las Vegas and you qualify for the loan, you should have no problem convincing the lender the property will be your secondary residence.

skek - 04 December 2008 07:59 PM

Hormiguero - 04 December 2008 06:47 PM

tenmagnet - 04 December 2008 06:07 PM

The entire project is a joint venture between MGM Mirage and Dubai World, so they are all affiliated and well funded.

MGM Mirage stock has had a tough year.

I’m not sure the market is as confident in their funding as some might be.

MGM Mirage provides the Vegas creds, Dubai World provides the money.  I wouldn’t worry about them.  For the same reason, those prices are sticky—they aren’t chasing the market down ... yet.  They also sold a number prior to the bust (I think Mandarin is sold out, but don’t quote me) so they’ve got some momentum to help carry them through.  Still, I suspect many of the early buyers are flippers who will never close escrow.  The market has a way of prevailing, even over Dubai oil money.

Sorry to disappoint, ten, but I’m not buying in Vegas.  I agree with acpme—when I go, I’ll stay at the resorts.  I’m a family man, now.  Don’t need a crash pad in Vegas.  Hawaii and South Beach, I’ll take.  Maybe a place in the mountains—Whistler sounds nice.  And top it off with a ranch outside of Jackson Hole.  Dreams, dreams, dreams…

It is true, the City Center project is way too far along to take a dump.  I have heard that they be running into cost overruns of $200-$300 million and are having a problem getting the lenders to kick in additional funds, but I’m sure that Dubai will cover any shortfall.  Most of the condo/condotels do have significant pre-sales, but pre-sales are not sales.  It’ll be interesting to see how many of those pre-sales turn into sold units with the difficulty of obtaining financing (see my point above concerning the Trump project which was 98% pre-sold).

Skek-tacular wrote:

Sorry to disappoint, ten, but I’m not buying in Vegas.  I agree with acpme—when I go, I’ll stay at the resorts.  I’m a family man, now.  Don’t need a crash pad in Vegas.  Hawaii and South Beach, I’ll take.  Maybe a place in the mountains—Whistler sounds nice.  And top it off with a ranch outside of Jackson Hole.  Dreams, dreams, dreams…

I understand what you mean.  I have a tiny place in Big Bear and then the small soon to be bungalow in Laguna Beach.  I’d rather have Jackson Hole or maybe Aspen, but i’m can’t belly up to the counter at those prices.

Anyways good luck
-bix

So everyone knows, Summerlin does have an association fee that everyone has to pay which is $45/month (there’s an additional association in gated areas communities) and there is a small Mello Roos that varies from about $50 to $100 per month depending on the size of the home and lot but Summerlin is as close to Irvine Ranch as you can get in Las Vegas.

Woodbridge - 04 December 2008 05:29 PM

I was also thinking of purchasing in LV for a 2nd home/investment for tax reasons.  Does anyone one have any information on the requirements for declaring Nevada as your filing state.  The tax savings alone would make the investment worthwhile. 

The extra 8-9% I’m paying in CA state tax is especially obscene considering that the money is wasted on paying for $85k/year salaries for correctional officers.

These are valid questions and many have tried it, but most lose.  Only the mega rich find the loop holes.  The way the CA tax collectors see it, where ever you earn your income decides where you pay taxes, e.g. if you earn it in CA you pay CA taxes.  Thus you can’t generally live in NV, earn income from a company or rental in CA and avoid CA taxes.  If that were the case everyone would be doing it.

As for as those correctional officers, try well into 6 figures, not $85K.  Most of them collect overtime checks that put them into the 6 figures, and some make overtime checks that alone are in the 6 figures.  They have the best union so salaries will only go up.  It’s a good gig if you can get in, not much in the way of requirements.

acpme - 04 December 2008 08:15 PM

they’re a bit too far along to mothball at this point.  not sure of the latest news but few months ago there were rumors mgm mirage wanted to step in and integrate the project with the city center.  cosmopolitan sits on a lot between city ctr and bellagio.  starwood would have JV’d or operate some of the properties.

all of this is before the mkts crashed and stock prices of hotel and gaming companies are down 50-75%, far worse than the overall mkt.  they probably don’t have the balance sheets to take this on now.

That has got to be the biggest paperweight or doorstop I have ever seen.

What about purchasing a condo/hotel unit at the Fontainebleau resort?
Place looks wicked!

Fontainebleau LV

Looks like the lifeblood of Las Vegas is leaking.

Gambling off 26% in October vs. Last Year. Thats going to leave a mark.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1032927320081210

tenmagnet - 10 December 2008 08:28 PM

What about purchasing a condo/hotel unit at the Fontainebleau resort?
Place looks wicked!

Fontainebleau LV

You’ll have the same problem getting financed as with other condotels like Palms Place.  If you are looking to pick up a high-rise condo in LV, then you have several options…Sky, Allure, Panaroma, Turnberry, etc and you won’t have $1,000+ HOA dues to deal with.  haha

usctrojanman29 - 10 December 2008 09:42 PM

tenmagnet - 10 December 2008 08:28 PM

What about purchasing a condo/hotel unit at the Fontainebleau resort?
Place looks wicked!

Fontainebleau LV

You’ll have the same problem getting financed as with other condotels like Palms Place.  If you are looking to pick up a high-rise condo in LV, then you have several options…Sky, Allure, Panaroma, Turnberry, etc and you won’t have $1,000+ HOA dues to deal with.  haha

It’s not the HOA that I have a problem with.
$12K a year is paltry and worth every penny if the place delivers.
The lack of traditional financing remains a problem.
Trying to decide if this place is worth it.
It’s trendy and hot right now with tons of celebrity buzz.
That may not be the case a few years from now which means a good exit plan.

Nothing in Vegas is worth it in 5 years.  After 10 years the place is a slum compared to the new mega palace they built across the street.

There is no successful exit stragety in that town.

On another note:  I played 2/3 no limit at the Wynn one time for six hours.  They are sending me letters encouraging me to come over, including comping me rooms for free.  They don’t make any money of a shlub like me (I don’t bet sports and don’t play pit games at all).  When they start offering me comps, they got trouble.

no_vaseline - 10 December 2008 10:57 PM

Nothing in Vegas is worth it in 5 years.  After 10 years the place is a slum compared to the new mega palace they built across the street.

There is no successful exit stragety in that town.

On another note:  I played 2/3 no limit at the Wynn one time for six hours.  They are sending me letters encouraging me to come over, including comping me rooms for free.  They don’t make any money of a shlub like me (I don’t bet sports and don’t play pit games at all).  When they start offering me comps, they got trouble.

I play Pai Gow and Craps. Normally $ 100.00 a hand Pai Gow. Usually I am gutter slime
to the Casino Host`s.  These days I am getting E-mail, Phone Calls, Love Letters.
Every place I happen to have a Players card is in HEAT for some business.
You know its bad when the Ventian is offering me “A Zero Slot Player” free nights.

bltserv - 11 December 2008 12:03 AM

no_vaseline - 10 December 2008 10:57 PM

Nothing in Vegas is worth it in 5 years.  After 10 years the place is a slum compared to the new mega palace they built across the street.

There is no successful exit stragety in that town.

On another note:  I played 2/3 no limit at the Wynn one time for six hours.  They are sending me letters encouraging me to come over, including comping me rooms for free.  They don’t make any money of a shlub like me (I don’t bet sports and don’t play pit games at all).  When they start offering me comps, they got trouble.

I play Pai Gow and Craps. Normally $ 100.00 a hand Pai Gow. Usually I am gutter slime
to the Casino Host`s.  These days I am getting E-mail, Phone Calls, Love Letters.
Every place I happen to have a Players card is in HEAT for some business.
You know its bad when the Ventian is offering me “A Zero Slot Player” free nights.

I’m worse than you.  I’m mostly a (poker) tournament donkey.  They make a whopping $30 fee if I play a $500 tourney from me.  Once a day.

They can’t possiblly make any money off of me.  Ever.  Which is why it’s comical to see them jonesing for my business.

no_vaseline - 11 December 2008 04:21 AM

bltserv - 11 December 2008 12:03 AM

no_vaseline - 10 December 2008 10:57 PM

Nothing in Vegas is worth it in 5 years.  After 10 years the place is a slum compared to the new mega palace they built across the street.

There is no successful exit stragety in that town.

On another note:  I played 2/3 no limit at the Wynn one time for six hours.  They are sending me letters encouraging me to come over, including comping me rooms for free.  They don’t make any money of a shlub like me (I don’t bet sports and don’t play pit games at all).  When they start offering me comps, they got trouble.

I play Pai Gow and Craps. Normally $ 100.00 a hand Pai Gow. Usually I am gutter slime
to the Casino Host`s.  These days I am getting E-mail, Phone Calls, Love Letters.
Every place I happen to have a Players card is in HEAT for some business.
You know its bad when the Ventian is offering me “A Zero Slot Player” free nights.

I’m worse than you.  I’m mostly a (poker) tournament donkey.  They make a whopping $30 fee if I play a $500 tourney from me.  Once a day.

They can’t possiblly make any money off of me.  Ever.  Which is why it’s comical to see them jonesing for my business.

They don’t even make that much.  Typically 60-70% of the fee for the tournies gets split between the dealers with the rest going to the house.

Las Vegas?  Ick.  I do not see the attraction.  Never have.  It seems to be the epitome of tacky, gaudy, tasteless, all look at me, and no humanity or kindness.

awgee - 11 December 2008 07:24 AM

Las Vegas?  Ick.  I do not see the attraction.  Never have.  It seems to be the epitome of tacky, gaudy, tasteless, all look at me, and no humanity or kindness.

Sounds a lot like the Jones in Orange County.  haha