bkshopr - 29 October 2009 12:55 AM

building code allows 1/250 sf. One can argue with the court and win. As long the non bedroom meets the light, ventilation and safety criteria people are allowed to sleep in the living and dining room.

Just because a building code “allows” for something does not meet that it can’t be privately contracted differently.

As Floor area ratio exceeds 35% parking is challenge. Camden is around 60% and the parking issue is very evident. Detached condo is around 50% and parking issue is also a nightmare.

My other posts gave some examples of neighborhoods with various Floor Area Ratio (FAR) comparisons.

High FAR percentage = more dense and plagued with parking problem. It is the nature of the Beast and there is no point in going against the grain trying to transform it into Beauty.

Parking issues are urban problem because of density housing. To combat the problem one must eliminate the garage and assigns parking stalls to residents. Storage habit automatically goes away.

The problem with density housing in suburbia is people will not settle for assigned stalls and no garage. Many planners like the idea of a roll up fence like the ones in shopping mall. The vehicles and personal belongings are secured in the Garage and HOA can see into the garage at anytime.

bkshopr - 29 October 2009 01:19 AM

As Floor area ratio exceeds 35% parking is challenge. Camden is around 60% and the parking issue is very evident. Detached condo is around 50% and parking issue is also a nightmare.

My other posts gave some examples of neighborhoods with various Floor Area Ratio (FAR) comparisons.

High FAR percentage = more dense and plagued with parking problem. It is the nature of the Beast and there is no point in going against the grain trying to transform it into Beauty.

Parking issues are urban problem because of density housing. To combat the problem one must eliminate the garage and assigns parking stalls to residents. Storage habit automatically goes away.

The problem with density housing in suburbia is people will not settle for assigned stalls and no garage. Many planners like the idea of a roll up fence like the ones in shopping mall. The vehicles and personal belongings are secured in the Garage and HOA can see into the garage at anytime.

But this is precisely the issue, because it’s a common problem in densely populated areas, neighborhoods control for it with strict CC&Rs;. If you don’t want to comply with the CC&Rs;, you don’t buy in that neighborhood. It’s really rather simple.

Perspective - 29 October 2009 12:59 AM

bkshopr - 29 October 2009 12:55 AM

building code allows 1/250 sf. One can argue with the court and win. As long the non bedroom meets the light, ventilation and safety criteria people are allowed to sleep in the living and dining room.

Just because a building code “allows” for something does not meet that it can’t be privately contracted differently.

I don’t know if you can legally enforce the occupancy count of an unit. I have seen in a situation where the fire department has the right to end a party when the number of partying occupants in the premise exceeded safety code. One could argue that the extra occupants in the house are frequent over night swinger guests.

No contract could legally restrict over night guests. That clause is bad for business and builders interest is in selling homes and do not want restrictive clause to deter sales.

Perspective - 29 October 2009 12:31 AM

CM_Dude - 28 October 2009 06:35 PM

I am so damn glad I didn’t end up buying in Camden Place!  I agree completely with Graphix, this thread has been highly frustrating because of the lack of actual information, which was finally provided by Shooby. 

To all complainers who want to park on the street, you are SOL.  End of discussion.

Relevant excerpt of CC&R Section 2.4.3 - Owners may not park any Authorized Vehicle in the street or in any guest parking space.

All the heat and noise and indignation about having more licensed drivers than allowed parking spaces is just hot air - those complaining had FULL disclosure of the parking requirements, and agreed to them when they purchased their property.  If you don’t like it, move.  That is the price you pay for lving in a development governed by HOAs.  I will NEVER live in a such a place. 

hs_teacher - 27 October 2009 06:54 PM

As for guest parking, each resident should be able to pick up 10 guest parking passes per month at the community center if they need it.
Any more than that, they should pay $5 per pass.

That sounds like pure hell, to be honest.  I have visitors at my place all the time, including weekly dinner parties attended by at least 7 people, often more.  Under this horrid scheme, I’d be paying my HOA at least $90/mo. for the privilege of hosting my friends.  No, thank you.

To each their own, but I seriously cannot understand the mindset that would find this an acceptable living situation.  Bring on the Costa Mesa SFR!!

CM Dude, you don’t want to live in an HOA-controlled neighborhood with strict CC&Rs;.  Great thanks.  Some of us do.  That’s why I bought in Camden Place, and I want the CC&Rs; enforced.

BTW, your description of your garage’s contents sounds like you’re the type who’d prefer to live in a rural spot up in Montana too - not just away from a “homes too close, HOA-controlled Irvine neighborhood.”

Perspective, if I bought into community governed by CC&Rs;, I would want them enforced as well, especially parking issues.  As I said, to each his/her own.  I know quite a few people who’d never live in my neighborhood, and who prefer the orderliness of Irvine and south county.  As for me?  I’d NEVER sign away my property rights by buying into a CC&R controlled development.

I have lived all over, and actually prefer Orange County to just about anywhere else in the US.  Perfect location, with all the urban amenities, yet with a City government (Costa Mesa) that is not overly intrusive and some decent-sized lots and nice neighborhoods.  The mountains and ocean are close, and I can escape to the Eastern Sierra, Utah, Arizona and Colorado whenever I need to get away.

bkshopr - 29 October 2009 01:34 AM

Perspective - 29 October 2009 12:59 AM

bkshopr - 29 October 2009 12:55 AM

building code allows 1/250 sf. One can argue with the court and win. As long the non bedroom meets the light, ventilation and safety criteria people are allowed to sleep in the living and dining room.

Just because a building code “allows” for something does not meet that it can’t be privately contracted differently.

I don’t know if you can legally enforce the occupancy count of an unit. I have seen in a situation where the fire department has the right to end a party when the number of partying occupants in the premise exceeded safety code. One could argue that the extra occupants in the house are frequent over night swinger guests.

No contract could legally restrict over night guests. That clause is bad for business and builders interest is in selling homes and do not want restrictive clause to deter sales.

Why not? Why couldn’t an occupancy count limitation be enforced? There’s no constitutional issue (e.g. no protected class affected).

Here is why. If people are reluctant to let enforcers going into the garage to check for compliance because they don’t want to disclose their toys then what are the chances of letting the enforcers into the private living domain of a house.

Even the police will need a warrant for that. In this country no one can enter anyone’s home and that will render HOA occupancy rule ineffective. This is very difficult to document and prove.

For some reason this method sounds like communist China to me. May be HOA could also enforce a single child per family occupancy rule.

The solution to this is to provide excess parking in the first place.  Of course, the developers don’t want to do that, because it takes up space and they want to cram as many units in as small a space as possible.

bkshopr - 29 October 2009 05:00 AM

Here is why. If people are reluctant to let enforcers going into the garage to check for compliance because they don’t want to disclose their toys then what are the chances of letting the enforcers into the private living domain of a house.

Even the police will need a warrant for that. In this country no one can enter anyone’s home and that will render HOA occupancy rule ineffective. This is very difficult to document and prove.

For some reason this method sounds like communist China to me. May be HOA could also enforce a single child per family occupancy rule.

You’re confusing a criminal law issue with the enforcement of private contracts. It is true that enforcing Camden Place’s occupancy limitation would be very complicated. The CC&Rs; give the “right to enter” a residence to investigate excess occupancy, but they couldn’t/wouldn’t force entry should access be denied. However, that denial likely violates the CC&Rs; allowing the HOA whatever remedies are available for violations. Considering our HOA’s current enforcement effectiveness, I’d consider this point moot. I brought it up to suggest that there are many provisions that could offend the sensibilities of readers of this forum.

Perspective - 29 October 2009 03:26 PM

bkshopr - 29 October 2009 05:00 AM

Here is why. If people are reluctant to let enforcers going into the garage to check for compliance because they don’t want to disclose their toys then what are the chances of letting the enforcers into the private living domain of a house.

Even the police will need a warrant for that. In this country no one can enter anyone’s home and that will render HOA occupancy rule ineffective. This is very difficult to document and prove.

For some reason this method sounds like communist China to me. May be HOA could also enforce a single child per family occupancy rule.

You’re confusing a criminal law issue with the enforcement of private contracts. It is true that enforcing Camden Place’s occupancy limitation would be very complicated. The CC&Rs; give the “right to enter” a residence to investigate excess occupancy, but they couldn’t/wouldn’t force entry should access be denied. However, that denial likely violates the CC&Rs; allowing the HOA whatever remedies are available for violations. Considering our HOA’s current enforcement effectiveness, I’d consider this point moot. I brought it up to suggest that there are many provisions that could offend the sensibilities of readers of this forum.

Perspective, do you have the CC&Rs; handy?  I’d like to see the “right to enter” language.  Thanks.

CM_Dude - 29 October 2009 09:12 PM

Perspective, do you have the CC&Rs; handy?  I’d like to see the “right to enter” language.  Thanks.

§ 2.2 defines single family residence as a dwelling with no more than three persons per bedroom. I’d written two earlier. That was wrong.

§ 6.4 provides for a Right of Entry: “The Neighborhood Association has the right to enter the Exclusive Use Areas and the Condominiums to inspect the Neighborhood and may take whatever corrective action it determines to be necessary or proper. Entry onto any Exclusive Use Areas and Condominiums under the Subsection may be made after at least three (3) days’ advance written notice to the Owner of the Condominium except for emergency situations, which shall not require notice…”

“Condominium” is defined in § 1.1.16 as the Common Area and the Unit - the Unit being the individual’s separate fee simple estate.

Perspective - 29 October 2009 12:38 AM

CM_Dude - 28 October 2009 06:41 PM

Also, regarding garage inspections.  I have a gun safe,  work bench with expensive tools, expensive bikes, backpacking, skiing, climbing, fishing and camping equipment, with plenty of room for vehicles, in my garage - no way in hell would I let some Patrol One rep get a peek in there.  I might as well put out an ad on Craigslist and leave the garage door open.

Your sentiments are probably shared by many others - protective of their “junk” and privacy. That’s why I think garage inspections would be difficult. If you think this is intrusive, I think there’s a provision that allows inspection of the home’s interior if it’s suspected too many people are living in the home. The CC&Rs; allow for 2 people per bedroom. If you have a Plan 1 or 2, that’s four residents max. How many Camden Place residents are violating this provision?

Based on your posted CC&R both Plan 1 & 2 are 2 bedroom units. 3 persons per bedroom CC&R rule would allow both plans to house 5-6 occupants.

This should parallel to my 250sf/occupant. 5x250sf =1,250sf =plan 1 assuming the master bedroom is for a normal couple.

However, the CC&R also allows for 6 occupants for a 2 bedroom house and that would place 3 swingers in the master bedroom and 6x250sf = 1,500 sf = plan 2

You will not be able to find probable cause unless you find 7 occupants living in the units. Even if you do find it the 3 day visitation notice would allow owners plenty of time to stage the home to reflect less occupants.

In my 2 decade of experience I have never seen HOA successfully busted the excessive occupancy rule in a house unless a fire issue or code issue is violated.

Living in the garage is illegal and numerous owners have been cited for that and mandated to retrofit the converted space back to a garage.

HOA can make residents miserable by sending warning notices but they really have no power to enforce the occupancy rule. However, HOA can make your life a living hell by other tactics.

Besides towing your car(s), what else can the HOA really do to make your life a “living hell”?

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 04:07 AM

However, the CC&R also allows for 6 occupants for a 2 bedroom house and that would place
HOA can make residents miserable by sending warning notices but they really have no power to enforce the occupancy rule. However, HOA can make your life a living hell by other tactics.

rickhunter - 30 October 2009 03:38 PM

Besides towing your car(s), what else can the HOA really do to make your life a “living hell”?

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 04:07 AM

However, the CC&R also allows for 6 occupants for a 2 bedroom house and that would place
HOA can make residents miserable by sending warning notices but they really have no power to enforce the occupancy rule. However, HOA can make your life a living hell by other tactics.

Its existence and fee.

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 05:09 PM

rickhunter - 30 October 2009 03:38 PM

Besides towing your car(s), what else can the HOA really do to make your life a “living hell”?

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 04:07 AM

However, the CC&R also allows for 6 occupants for a 2 bedroom house and that would place
HOA can make residents miserable by sending warning notices but they really have no power to enforce the occupancy rule. However, HOA can make your life a living hell by other tactics.

Its existence and fee.

hahaha

LOL

From the tone on this thread, it’s the neighbors that are the problem, not the HOA.
The HOA fees were known before you buy (maybe not the increases), but you really dont know what kind of neighbors you have until you live there.

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 05:09 PM

rickhunter - 30 October 2009 03:38 PM

Besides towing your car(s), what else can the HOA really do to make your life a “living hell”?

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 04:07 AM

However, the CC&R also allows for 6 occupants for a 2 bedroom house and that would place
HOA can make residents miserable by sending warning notices but they really have no power to enforce the occupancy rule. However, HOA can make your life a living hell by other tactics.

Its existence and fee.

Here are why HOA can make your life a living hell.

Make you paint your house with the original colors that you hate and be completed by certain time.

You can’t plant your favorite plants in front of your house.

You can’t never alter the appearance of your home.

You must finish your back yard in a year

You must have window covering in 6 months

You can’t make noise after 10pm

You can’t shut off your exterior light even though it is on your meter.

You can’t shut off your sprinkler in front of your home even though it is on your meter.

You can’t have certain pots by your door.

You can’t repair the exterior yourself HOA has do it for you and your neighbors at the same time and send you a bill.

You pay them every months and they never attend to your need.

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 06:26 PM

Here are why HOA can make your life a living hell.

Make you paint your house with the original colors that you hate and be completed by certain time.

You can’t plant your favorite plants in front of your house.

You can’t never alter the appearance of your home.

You must finish your back yard in a year

You must have window covering in 6 months

You can’t make noise after 10pm

You can’t shut off your exterior light even though it is on your meter.

You can’t shut off your sprinkler in front of your home even though it is on your meter.

You can’t have certain pots by your door.

You can’t repair the exterior yourself HOA has do it for you and your neighbors at the same time and send you a bill.

You pay them every months and they never attend to your need.

Ahh, Bkshopr, you just listed many reason why HOAs are GREAT! Individualize the interior of your home. Enjoy your yellow and green walls and funky ethnic decor. I don’t wanna see. Once again, that is why I bought a home in an HOA-controlled neighborhood.

Perspective - 29 October 2009 01:39 AM

Why not? Why couldn’t an occupancy count limitation be enforced? There’s no constitutional issue (e.g. no protected class affected).

Um, bullshit.  Santa Ana has tried to do just that, and quit because somebody litigated.

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/sep/15/local/me-density15

no_vaseline - 30 October 2009 07:32 PM

Perspective - 29 October 2009 01:39 AM

Why not? Why couldn’t an occupancy count limitation be enforced? There’s no constitutional issue (e.g. no protected class affected).

Um, bullshit.  Santa Ana has tried to do just that, and quit because somebody litigated.

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/sep/15/local/me-density15

“Um, bullshit”? That response connotes complete fallacy in my statement. The article you site simply suggests it’s difficult, which I’ve already conceded. However, you chose an example of one of the poorest ethnically homogeneous cities in the country which introduces the constitutional issue into the argument. That makes it much more difficult to enforce.

Try again.

If you can’t do it in Santa Ana, you can’t do it anywhere.  Occupancy laws are unenforceable.

Last fall, the 4th District Court of Appeals struck down the city’s previous residential overcrowding ordinance, ruling it too restrictive. Under the city’s interpretation of the state housing code, officials said only four people could live in an average one-bedroom apartment. But the court said 10 residents was the allowable limit.

There is your limit.  Good luck!

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-11-16/local/me-1544_1_santa-ana

no_vaseline - 30 October 2009 09:00 PM

If you can’t do it in Santa Ana, you can’t do it anywhere.  Occupancy laws are unenforceable.

Last fall, the 4th District Court of Appeals struck down the city’s previous residential overcrowding ordinance, ruling it too restrictive. Under the city’s interpretation of the state housing code, officials said only four people could live in an average one-bedroom apartment. But the court said 10 residents was the allowable limit.

There is your limit.  Good luck!

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-11-16/local/me-1544_1_santa-ana

Guess that means that the all those folks who are in over their heads can continue to rent out their living rooms and media nooks.  haha

Perspective - 30 October 2009 06:54 PM

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 06:26 PM

Here are why HOA can make your life a living hell.

Make you paint your house with the original colors that you hate and be completed by certain time.

You can’t plant your favorite plants in front of your house.

You can’t never alter the appearance of your home.

You must finish your back yard in a year

You must have window covering in 6 months

You can’t make noise after 10pm

You can’t shut off your exterior light even though it is on your meter.

You can’t shut off your sprinkler in front of your home even though it is on your meter.

You can’t have certain pots by your door.

You can’t repair the exterior yourself HOA has do it for you and your neighbors at the same time and send you a bill.

You pay them every months and they never attend to your need.

Ahh, Bkshopr, you just listed many reason why HOAs are GREAT! Individualize the interior of your home. Enjoy your yellow and green walls and funky ethnic decor. I don’t wanna see. Once again, that is why I bought a home in an HOA-controlled neighborhood.

If you need an HOA to control resident’s behavior then the problem lies in your neighbors. Who are the neighbors that tend to break rules and destroy the fabric of a community?

I hate the HOA rules. I do not like to be rushed into a decision of finishing my project and having to live with the consequences later for not thinking through.

I believe in individuality and owners should have choices in personalization of their home for identity. A cookie cutter community that look monotonous needs to have some spirit other than a different door mat.

I think you may need to choose a neighborhood with residents that have good taste and their home improvements are admired by others. The second attribute is neighbors with good and considerate conducts.

I encourage people to buying resale because you can study and observe the behavior of the existing residents.

Buying new one can never predict what he will be getting. It is worse than a blind date because you can’t end a bad adjacent neighbor relationship.

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 09:30 PM

Perspective - 30 October 2009 06:54 PM

bkshopr - 30 October 2009 06:26 PM

Here are why HOA can make your life a living hell.

Make you paint your house with the original colors that you hate and be completed by certain time.

You can’t plant your favorite plants in front of your house.

You can’t never alter the appearance of your home.

You must finish your back yard in a year

You must have window covering in 6 months

You can’t make noise after 10pm

You can’t shut off your exterior light even though it is on your meter.

You can’t shut off your sprinkler in front of your home even though it is on your meter.

You can’t have certain pots by your door.

You can’t repair the exterior yourself HOA has do it for you and your neighbors at the same time and send you a bill.

You pay them every months and they never attend to your need.

Ahh, Bkshopr, you just listed many reason why HOAs are GREAT! Individualize the interior of your home. Enjoy your yellow and green walls and funky ethnic decor. I don’t wanna see. Once again, that is why I bought a home in an HOA-controlled neighborhood.

If you need an HOA to control resident’s behavior then the problem lies in your neighbors. Who are the neighbors that tend to break rules and destroy the fabric of a community?

I hate the HOA rules. I do not like to be rushed into a decision of finishing my project and having to live with the consequences later for not thinking through.

I believe in individuality and owners should have choices in personalization of their home for identity. A cookie cutter community that look monotonous needs to have some spirit other than a different door mat.

I think you may need to choose a neighborhood with residents that have good taste and their home improvements are admired by others. The second attribute is neighbors with good and considerate conducts.

I encourage people to buying resale because you can study and observe the behavior of the existing residents.

Buying new one can never predict what he will be getting. It is worse than a blind date because you can’t end a bad adjacent neighbor relationship.

Ah spoken like a true realtor.  “No no no, don’t buy at that new Irvine Co. development, they don’t offer broker co-op….er….i mean…...they don’t guarantee who your neighbors are, thats what i meant to say”

.