Sorry this question is kind of vague, but how do neighborhoods become slums? I saw on the History Channel that in the 1890’s Harlem was the high class neighborhood of New York with the largest mansions. There was a time when Compton was a nice place, and get this, when I was in elementary school my relatives chided me for living in “shanty shack town” NEWPORT BEACH. They were from a repsectable neighborhood in SANTA ANA. I am not making this up.

So how does it happen that the good places can become the not so good places? Is it easy to forcast where it will happen?What can urban planning do to prevent it?

Compton was a total case of racism based white flight followed by mismanagement and crime.

Santa Ana, best I can find out (and I’ve been asking around) was a combination of people looking for suburban life in the post war period, along with influx into downtown of the poor Mexicans who were farmworkers, but had no place to work once the farms became subdivisions.  This, again, coupled with mismangement and crime.

Newport was able to reinvent itself as people fled the cities for suburbs, businesses came to the suburbs (e.g., Fashion Island offices), and the beach became a place to live and not just to visit.  Because so much land was undeveloped, it allowed for new homes to be built that would cater to the fashion of the moment, and those who could pay for it.

This is a total oversimplification, but gives you the rough outlines.  Or maybe one of our planning and/or history friends from The Irvine Company can chime in and beat my theories to a pulp. 

Neglect, lack of accountability and apathy.

It’s the same reasons the problems that people are fleeing from in California follow them to places like Phoenix, Salt Lake, Jackson etc.

EvaLSeraphim - 07 August 2008 08:13 PM

Compton was a total case of racism based white flight followed by people who ok with race, but not mismanagement and crime.
...

The racism affecting Compton went beyond white flight.  I remember seeing “Made in American” at Sundance.  It’s about the environment in Compton that spawned the Crips and Bloods.  Some of the original members of the gang’s forerunners spoke.  To say that time period was messed up is an understatement. 

One of the guys, now 60ish, vividly recounted being turned away from the boy scouts.  Simply because he was black and the local boy scouts group was a white group and if the Scoutmaster let him in, everybody else would leave.  How they had to form their own group.  And, how to this day, it still upset him.  The fact that it still upset him and he was still angry about it was obvious.

That was the double a-ha of the movie and board discussion.  First Wow, “They wouldn’t let you in the boyscouts?!?!”  Second Wow, “That’s 50 years ago and you’re still pissed off.”

Deep wounds.

EvaLSeraphim - 07 August 2008 08:13 PM

Compton was a total case of racism based white flight followed by people who ok with race, but not mismanagement and crime.

Santa Ana, best I can find out (and I’ve been asking around) was a combination of people looking for suburban life in the post war period, along with influx into downtown of the poor Mexicans who were farmworkers, but had no place to work once the farms became subdivisions.  This, again, coupled with mismangement and crime.

Newport was able to reinvent itself as people fled the cities for suburbs, businesses came to the suburbs (e.g., Fashion Island offices), and the beach became a place to live and not just to visit.  Because so much land was undeveloped, it allowed for new homes to be built that would cater to the fashion of the moment, and those who could pay for it.

This is a total oversimplification, but gives you the rough outlines.  Or maybe one of our planning and/or history friends from The Irvine Company can chime in and beat my theories to a pulp. 

I have very fond memories of Santa Ana back in the 70’s.  We had moved from Long Beach to No. Tustin and we considered downtown Santa Ana the “big city”.  It was quite nice back then and had some upscale stores (Buffums, Bullocks, etc.)  My mom had her favorite shoe store on Main street that was owned by a sweet old man who catered to her every need.  Ironically, my parents left Long Beach for the same reasons that Santa Ana went downhill.

My grandfather tried to join some random fraternal organization in the 1930’s.  They told him no, because they didn’t like his ‘race’.

In the late 1970s, somebody approached him about joining.  My grandfather very politely told the (well meaning individual) the above story and that he wouldn’t be joining that organization under any circumstances.

When he passed away in the late 1980s, that same orgainzation posthumously recognized and inducted my grandfather for his service to the community.  I wish I could make this story up but it’s true.

I grew up in a small town called Santa Teresa NM.  It was essentially a surburb town on the outskirts of El Paso on the New Mexico side.  It was pretty upscale because the homes and area were seculded as well as the owner of the majority of the land would NOT release it to people who wanted to develop “lower income homes”. 

Well the cities/state/govt. ACQUIRED the land and went on without him.  Next thing you know, the cheap homes come in, the border crossing gets built and a LARGE population of poor immigrants step in.  And with this, of course, we get all the issues with living in a border town.  The drugs, the crime and grift that happens.  Thankfully we quickly got out of that area.

But really the El Paso area isn’t the best… in any way shape or form.  Oh well, take it easy
-bix

edit. Might have misread a previous post….waiting for clarification.

Trooper - 10 August 2008 06:59 AM

“One of the guys, now 60ish, vividly recounted being turned away from the boy scouts.  Simply because he was black and the local boy scouts group was a white group and if the Scoutmaster let him in, everybody else would leave.  How they had to form their own group.  And, how to this day, it still upset him.  The fact that it still upset him and he was still angry about it was obvious.

That was the double a-ha of the movie and board discussion.  First Wow, “They wouldn’t let you in the boyscouts?!?!” Second Wow, “That’s 50 years ago and you’re still pissed off.”

Deep wounds”. 

Tookie Williams was a monster.  Not getting into the Boy Scouts might have sucked, but seems like he had a little more going on in his life that also helped those wounds.  To this day, the Boy Scouts don’t allow homosexuals, but you don’t see us forming our own homicidal gang because we’re pissed.  The phrase “they had to form their own group”....sheesh, what an understatement.  They formed the Crips to emulate the Black Panthers, to create social change by any means necessary.  When that didn’t work, well…..the rest is history.

“For instance, it is instructive to note how the trajectory that
led Williams into Crip life hits all the marks we’ve come to expect whenever
troubled boys become gangsters: His biological father was never in the
picture; his mother, whom Williams all but deifies, was a pregnant teenager-
turned-church woman who thought the way to corral her energetic boy child
was to beat him over the most minor infraction, using belts and electrical
cords. Only once does Williams hint that what he calls her “biblically-inspired
beatings” might have done him emotional damage. “The frequency of the
beatings aged me considerably,” he writes of his early childhood. “I became
more unruly, distant and indifferent to the predictable consequence of my
actions.”

Tookie was executed by the State of California in 2005.

The Crips

I agree that those times were obviously difficult for blacks, but I couldn’t help but respond when I recognized who you were talking about.

/rant

I am going to back Troop up on this one. Tookie was the best case for coaching a ruthless, coldblooded, murderer as a nice guy with issues who wrote had a children’s book written for him. There are plenty of videos of the real Tookie out there, and not just the empathic attorney supported versions that were made into a movie. Do a google search and you will see the bias of save Tookie. And please, please do not think of this as any political leaning ideal. I have no allegiance to a political party, I think for myself and get my own answers. Back in the day you knew clear as day who was a crip and who was a blood, and you didn’t want to be in between them when they were around each other. I know… gasp… someone in OC saw this? Yup, and it wasn’t fun. Has it changed? Not much. In fact it has become worse, you don’t know who is a gang member and who isn’t, but I am sure Trooper does. Granted, Tookie had the right idea in the end, but it was too little too late.

And, the Boy Scout thing reminds me of that South Park episode where they boot Big Gay Al out as the troop leader, only to bring in the burly military manly dude who molests the kids anyway. Then the kids go and protest the new leader, but no one listens. Thank gawd people are becoming more open minded, and realize it isn’t the the ones you think you should fear, but the ones you don’t know to fear that are the worst of them all.

I didn’t know Stacy Peralta did a third movie.  His surfing documentary Riding Giants is one of my top 10 fav movies, and I don’t surf.  Dogtown and Zboys was pretty good too.  Made in America is currently not in release, outside of film festivals, which is too bad.  I’d like to see it.

I watched “Redemption” on cable some time ago, and felt like I was watching a KGB or RNC proproganda piece.

Thanks for the context of NSR’s post.  I hadn’t realized who the person he quoted was or what “their own group” became.

To clarify my edit…. I initially had a knee jerk reaction about NSR’s post.  I thought he was referring to an interview of Tookie on the documentary, then upon re-reading I’m not sure if he’s talking about someone speaking at a panel discussion after the film.

So, to err on the side of caution, I edited….but G beat me to the edit and copied my original post.

NSR, can you clarify wether it was Stanley “Tookie” Williams’ taped interview you are talking about?  He obviously couldn’t have been a part of the live panel discussion because he, well….isn’t alive.

As you all can tell, I have a strong opinion on this one.

No, it was neither Tookie nor Washington.  The ‘old’ timers are currently working social outreach trying to get some on the current gang members out and work on their community. Their own group referred to their own boy scout type group.  Later groups where neighborhood gangs, sounding very 50’s-ish.  Then as you mention, the Black Panthers and the morph into the Crips and Bloods.  What, if anything, the elder reformed members ever did was glossed over.

However I suspect I share a little of your jadedness.  The third aha moment came when one of them made another comment that made me question if they felt any responsbility for their part in creating the environment.  Frankly, it’s were Stacy really misses with the movie.  It almost had a justification tone to it.

I have very mixed feelings about this whole thing.

We were the last white people to move from our block.
To me a blockbuster was a black person who would move
into a block, so all the white people would move out.  The
black people were an improvement on the hillbillies who had
moved in.

For the first 10 years of my life, my neighborhood was
Jewish/Italians with some Irish and Germans like me.

Everything was cared for.  It was safe enough that i
could and did wander around and nobody worried where
I was.

The white flight thing happened from the mid 50s to mid 60s
and then it was over.

This was, I later learned, a part of the great northern migration
of black people from the south.

So, what if the white people hadn’t fled?  Where would the black
people have gone?  The neighborhood deteriorated, but was
that because the black people were simply poor and couldn’t
keep up the houses.  Also, the black people had no political
power, and couldn’t prevent libraries from being closed down
in their area, nor the street in front of my house from being
widened to the point of neighborhood destruction.

Surely there was a better way of doing all this?  But who knows
and it certainly never happened.

Where my mom lives today is finally being integrated.
When I was growing up it was inhabited by stubborn mean
Polish people, who wouldn’t let the black people in.  And would
have stopped them by any means possible, including knife
fights.  I really doubt any boy scouts would have let any
black people in.  It also
never deteriorated, and the little marble stepped row houses
are mostly still in excellent shape.  Many Spanish types live
there now, legal and illegal.  Occasionally she teaches them
English.  (She’s 84, nearly 85.)  The pattern I grew up with
dense housing, lots of little mom and pop stores, lots of stuff you
can walk to, continues in that area.

This is all very politically incorrect, but there you are.
I guess it was all something we had to go through.

In this generation, it’s not race that makes people move, it’s crime and neighborhood deterioration.

That’s one great thing about HOA’s. Irvine will never have a slum due to the fact there will always be a group of old bittys keeping things in order.

PadreBrian - 18 August 2008 06:38 PM

In this generation, it’s not race that makes people move, it’s crime and neighborhood deterioration.

That’s one great thing about HOA’s. Irvine will never have a slum due to the fact there will always be a group of old bittys keeping things in order.

Not every neighborhood in Irvine has an HOA. There are some places that could qualify as “slummy” when compared to perceived hauty Irvine standards.

Its the curvy, non-grid streets…

lawyerliz - 11 August 2008 12:47 AM

I have very mixed feelings about this whole thing.

We were the last white people to move from our block.
To me a blockbuster was a black person who would move
into a block, so all the white people would move out.  The
black people were an improvement on the hillbillies who had
moved in.

For the first 10 years of my life, my neighborhood was
Jewish/Italians with some Irish and Germans like me.

Everything was cared for.  It was safe enough that i
could and did wander around and nobody worried where
I was.

The white flight thing happened from the mid 50s to mid 60s
and then it was over.

This was, I later learned, a part of the great northern migration
of black people from the south.

So, what if the white people hadn’t fled?  Where would the black
people have gone?  The neighborhood deteriorated, but was
that because the black people were simply poor and couldn’t
keep up the houses.  Also, the black people had no political
power, and couldn’t prevent libraries from being closed down
in their area, nor the street in front of my house from being
widened to the point of neighborhood destruction.

Surely there was a better way of doing all this?  But who knows
and it certainly never happened.

Where my mom lives today is finally being integrated.
When I was growing up it was inhabited by stubborn mean
Polish people, who wouldn’t let the black people in.  And would
have stopped them by any means possible, including knife
fights.  I really doubt any boy scouts would have let any
black people in.  It also
never deteriorated, and the little marble stepped row houses
are mostly still in excellent shape.  Many Spanish types live
there now, legal and illegal.  Occasionally she teaches them
English.  (She’s 84, nearly 85.)  The pattern I grew up with
dense housing, lots of little mom and pop stores, lots of stuff you
can walk to, continues in that area.

This is all very politically incorrect, but there you are.
I guess it was all something we had to go through.

I could not find any neighborhood in America where the black people moved in and the White people stayed and protect their RE property value. Here in California we have Inglewood and Baldwin Hills as the best examples to illustrate what you described. Property value will deteriote after black folks moved in.

25w100k+ - 10 September 2008 10:43 PM

Its the curvy, non-grid streets…

Actually, there are community planning features that can contribute to a neighborhood’s demise. Most of the areas that become slums have small housing units in neighborhoods with few services and no sense of place. In short, they are not very desirable. Once an economic center moves away or there is some local economic disruption, these neighborhoods go bad. Once they are gone, it is difficult to revive them because there is nothing desirable about them. The exceptions to this would be in locations that are desirable for other reasons such as proximity to the ocean. I would not be surprised to see Compton make a comeback. Another city I always thought had potential is Oxnard. The property values are low, and it is very near the ocean.

I find this sad that slums is equated to non-white demographics.

There are plenty of slums in the US that are predominately caucasian.

What about Asian neighborhoods. Asians bought in many lower priced neighborhoods and home prices increased most of the time. If you can stand what they do to their homes then it is nice to have them as neighbors because they tend to drive comp up. Rowland Heights, Diamond Bar and Chino are just some examples.

irvine_home_owner - 08 September 2008 05:11 PM

PadreBrian - 18 August 2008 06:38 PM

In this generation, it’s not race that makes people move, it’s crime and neighborhood deterioration.

That’s one great thing about HOA’s. Irvine will never have a slum due to the fact there will always be a group of old bittys keeping things in order.

Not every neighborhood in Irvine has an HOA. There are some places that could qualify as “slummy” when compared to perceived hauty Irvine standards.

Saw two Irvine policemen following an exotic looking car once, just shadowing the owner’s movements as he went from store to store at a less upscale Irvine mall.
What gangsta would want to live in Irvine with police like that?

bkshopr - 11 September 2008 07:09 PM

What about Asian neighborhoods. Asians bought in many lower priced neighborhoods and home prices increased most of the time. If you can stand what they do to their homes then it is nice to have them as neighbors because they tend to drive comp up. Rowland Heights, Diamond Bar and Chino are just some examples.

Yes, Asians do raise RE values of blighted neighborhoods.  I grew up in the ghetto in 1970s downtown LA, near Westmoreland and Olympic in a tenement called the “Menlo Zoo” (several neighbors mugged/attacked in basement laundry room).  Koreans started moving to that neighborhood in the 1980s and today it is a fairly decent Korean neighborhood.
As late as the late 1980s, there was a significant black population in Rowland Heights, concentrated mainly around Batson and Colima.  There were also many blacks in Chino and I believe Snoop Dog once coached football in Rowland Heights and he still lives in Diamond Bar.  Rowland Heights was then considered a low class neighborhood that was too close to the 60 freeway, the white people at that time lived in Hacienda Heights (note that today, there are few whites left in HH).  The entire black population of RH has completely vanished and RH today is nearly 100% Asian and property values today in RH have risen to be as high or higher than neighboring Hacienda Heights.  Frankly, I can understand why the blacks and whites left Rowland Heights; despite higher RE values, all the signs are in Asian gibberish and nobody knows how to drive.

High Gravity - 09 October 2008 06:23 PM

.... all the signs are in Asian gibberish and nobody knows how to drive.

[PC Shield ON]
Maybe the driving would be better if the road signs were in Asian gibberish too?

I find it interesting that Asians would bring home values up.

In Irvine… I’ve heard people say there are too many Asians… and this is coming from Asians (hypocrisy who?)!

irvine_home_owner - 09 October 2008 06:35 PM

High Gravity - 09 October 2008 06:23 PM

.... all the signs are in Asian gibberish and nobody knows how to drive.

[PC Shield ON]
Maybe the driving would be better if the road signs were in Asian gibberish too?

I find it interesting that Asians would bring home values up.

In Irvine… I’ve heard people say there are too many Asians… and this is coming from Asians (hypocrisy who?)!

“Too many Asians” is a cultural complaint, not an economic one.  Whites who fled yellowing neighborhoods were more than happy to sell their homes at inflated prices to Asians and then move to Salt Lake City.

Astute Observer - 09 October 2008 09:08 PM

Asian is a very board category, and even among the same nationality (can be an issue by itself between Chinese and Taiwanese), there are some we-and-them mentality, so there is no hypocrisy when one asian complaint about “other” asians.

Asian homes by region:
Japanese - Clean, tidy, quality furniture, and artwork.
Korean - Clean, tidy, strange artwork, religious objects, huge kim chi fermenter in garage.
Chinese (Mainland) - Disorganized, pile of shoes on all porches, two sets of bunk beds in each bedroom, mold growing in shower.
Chinese (Taiwan) - Tidy, faux Louis XVIII furniture, samurai sword set on mantle, pile of shoes on all porches, mold growing in shower.
Vietnamese - Outrageous drapery, oversized furniture, nuc mam aroma.