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IR I saw an interesting question last night with no answer: “IR I have an bank sale question: If one buys a property all cash, to live in or rent out. How long until one can “extract one’s equity” and get a loan out for it? “
The weasel answer is, “it depends.”
Lenders are not keen on making these loans right now for obvious reasons, so some seasoning is probably going to be required. We are exploring alternatives right now, but I have nothing to report.
If I were a lender, I would want to see a rental agreement and at least two on-time rental payments from a tenant before I was confident the rent would cover my payment plus a cushion. Therefore, I would anticipate a seasoning period plus a relatively low loan-to-value.
Also, you need to examine the all-cash returns and make sure taking on debt makes sense. If the property only has a 4% capitalization rate, it is counterproductive to apply 5% debt.
What about owner occupied?
“If the property only has a 4% capitalization rate, it is counterproductive to apply 5% debt.”
If you think interest rates are going up, it might still make sense to get 5% fixed rate financing. Also note that higher inflation implies higher rents and rates. This situation would leave the landlord with a higher cap rate and 5% financing. Not too shabby.
That is still overpaying today and betting on improving conditions tomorrow. It is still bubble thinking. If financial conditions do not make sense now, they may never make sense, so such an investor is simply gambling. The rosy scenario may come to pass, but that wouldn’t make the initial decision to overpay right, it must makes it lucky.
Totally agree if we are talking about buying a property.
But I was referring to “If one buys a property all cash, to live in or rent out. How long until one can “extract one’s equity” and get a loan out for it? ””. If you already have a property, a 5% loan would be a nice hedge. But I agree, this is speculation and it does not make sense today. Problem is, if inflation came back, I don’t think the 5% loans will still be around.
I guess there is no substitute for knowing the future.
“I guess there is no substitute for knowing the future.”
Lenders are betting that inflation will not get out of control and that their 5% loans will still make them an inflation-adjusted return. If you believe they are wrong, and if you believe inflation will exceed the interest rate on the loan for an extended period, then taking on debt is getting free money. I have a difficult time imagining the Federal Reserve allowing sustained inflation in excess of 5%. But anything is possible.
Hi—
Please correct me if I’m wrong, if you buy all-cash, then refinance to withdraw equity, wouldn’t this be a recourse loan?
So, if you plan to “extract” equity, why pay all-cash? Why not get an initial loan which would be non-recourse?
—Thanks
“you should minimize your time to payoff by optimizing ... your down payment and utilizing accelerated amortization”
Very dangerous advice, which may lead to loss of money. Whole financial situation must be analyzed and carefully planned.
For example:
1). It may be better to pay off another debt (credit cards, auto loan, credit lines or medical bills).
2). Sometimes fixed income investment may increase net wealth faster then accelerated amortization of mortgage.
3). Shortening loan term may be better then accelerated amortization of mortage.
There are a lot of other possibilities.
My advice would apply to paying down all debt, and that would go in order from highest interest rate to lowest. So, yes, if they have higher interest debt, they should pay that before paying down a mortgage. Of course, they also should stop taking on high-interest debt.
What I am concerned people are going to do is borrow cheap money and go speculating and help inflate more bubbles in other asset classes. Everyone thinks they can out-earn a lender, and they can’t.
Lenders have examined the alternative investments and determined that extending loans is the most productive use of their capital. Whenever a borrower takes this money with the belief they can reinvest it and obtain a higher rate of return, they implicitly believe they are smarter than lenders. Is is logical for individuals to believe they are wiser than the collective wisdom of the lending industry? (perhaps a bad example…)
There is a proper place for debt, and I will explore those issues further, but right now, in out time in history, we need collectively and individually to extinguish debt. Unfortunately, we are so addicted that we will likely go the other way.
If the lender you are referring to is Goldman Sachs (GS), I agree, if you are referring to Countrywide Financial (bailed out) betting against the lender might be good advice.
“Is is logical for individuals to believe they are wiser than the collective wisdom of the lending industry?”
I think it depends on situation and particular individual. Collective is more systematic and powerful, but individual is capable of making quick decisions and moves.
However, it is academic question at the moment. There are massive government interventions, and, IMHO, this lender is completely out of its financial mind. Huge bonus for individuals.
“Sometimes fixed income investment may increase net wealth faster then accelerated amortization of mortgage.”
What type or kind of fixed income investments would you recommend?
Sorry, I am not financial adviser, and I do not want any responsibility.
This is just an example.
Mutual fund FNMIX (emerging markets bonds) had 12.30% average annual return for last 10 years. It was better to invest into this fund then pay off 5% mortgage.
Ahhh…hindsight is 20/20 everytime.
It is best to live debt free with no mortgage. It is much easier to make bring large ROI when one has no debt.
Not really. Debt-free guy has peace of mind, but not good return on investment.
I think it provides both, and I do not believe you can obtain a better risk-adjusted return in other investments. Yes, you can find volatile investments that may have good long-term performance, but one significant drawdown can wipe out the excess gained by leverage and then some. In fact, this is what most people experienced in the stock and housing markets over the last 4 years.
If you managed to produce a positive return over 2008 and 2009, you outperformed most indices and most hedge fund managers.
IR, you know me and you know what my investments have been in. Do you think my investments have outperformed indices, take your pick, and most hedge fund managers?
Prices are not risk-adjusted. It is job of investor to find market imperfections and to fix them.
US social structure looks like 5% rich, 85% middle class and 10% poor. It means that 85+10=95% must fail to invest to keep balance.
Probability is against me, but I like challenge.
awgee,
You and John Paulson. You both pursued the same strategies at the same time.
I will point out that Paulson levered up and hit a big home run. I wouldn’t have had the same nerve.
I favor your approach.
You are wrong. Debt free guy got there by being able to analyze risk and has a better ROI than those in debt.
It does not require any risk analysis or rocket science to transfer money from checking account to lender.
Well, some prefer to file bankruptcy.
Ok, I will spell it out for you.
In order to have the money to transfer, debt free guy is good at taking money from all the stock investors.
We are talking about a person’s life here. Peace of mind is everything! Debt-free is great. Try it sometime.
“Make sure your financing is fixed and assumable”
Questionable advice.
Well, if somebody takes 40 years mortgage, but expects to sell house within 3-7 years, assumability will work great.
However, not good for long term homeowner. Assumable FHA loan costs more then non-assumable conventional. Also, assumability may lose value because of appreciation, mortgage rates and accelerated payments.
I question whether the tiny interest rate markup for FHA insurance would ever compensate for the loss in value caused by giving up assumability. It would only be better for an owner to use non-assumable fixed-rate financing and avoid the FHA insurance fee if they were holding the loan to term and paying it off, and nobody does that anymore.
How much is assumability worth? Maybe nothing at all.
Nobody knows what future will bring. For example, you may have cash buyer, or granite countertop may be more important for buyers then assumable mortgage, or goverment may cancel assumability due to lack of funds.
“goverment may cancel assumability due to lack of funds”
If you are going to throw in the voiding of contracts, this whole conversation is pointless. Our whole financial system is based on the enforceability of contacts, and a legal recourse when they are breached.
Government did it before. Executive order issued by president Roosvelt: “All persons are hereby required to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, to a Federal Reserve bank or a branch or agency thereof or to any member bank of the Federal Reserve System all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates now owned by them or coming into their ownership ...”
I did not say it could not happen, or that it has never happened, only that if we do not assume that contracts are valid, these conversations are pointless because they are based on contracts.
If this is what you are planning for, gold and a gun is the way to go.
Other than the FHA, who does assumable loans? The spread on FHA loan vs. banks loan doesn’t seem very small and the extra 1.5% FHA fee seems very small comparied to other lender’s fee and only 3.5% down.
IR, A song would be “How Long?” for a blog theme.
FHA works for low down and especially raising interest rates.
FHA is the new sub-prime, low money down. Move bankers liabilities to taxpayer laibilities.
Yesterday, BHO is saying that the stimulus package (bank bailouts) were necessary to prevent another great depression. Why was it bad when GWB was doing it? End welfare for the banksters.
If the bank fails or is too unstable, nationalize them and pay them govt. salaries ( ES as the highest rate and use claw backs for fraud and neggligence).
Got the below off Wikipedia so not exact legislative history, but looks like the ultimate results to the repeal of Glass-Stegall were clear even in 1987.
In 1987 the Congressional Research Service prepared a report which explored the cases for and against preserving the Glass–Steagall act.
The argument for preserving Glass–Steagall (as written in 1987):
1. Conflicts of interest characterize the granting of credit — lending — and the use of credit — investing — by the same entity, which led to abuses that originally produced the Act.
2. Depository institutions possess enormous financial power, by virtue of their control of other people’s money; its extent must be limited to ensure soundness and competition in the market for funds, whether loans or investments.
3. Securities activities can be risky, leading to enormous losses. Such losses could threaten the integrity of deposits. In turn, the Government insures deposits and could be required to pay large sums if depository institutions were to collapse as the result of securities losses.
4. Depository institutions are supposed to be managed to limit risk. Their managers thus may not be conditioned to operate prudently in more speculative securities businesses. An example is the crash of real estate investment trusts sponsored by bank holding companies (in the 1970s and 1980s).
Year after bottom, O.C. home prices up 15%
http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/2010/02/17/a-year-after-the-bottom-o-c-home-prices-up-15/56365/
The question is was this THE bottom or A bottom. Also note that he uses the median so the prices are subject to the mix of property type.
This will be an interesting year. Lets see if the government stops the making homes more expensive programs as planned, or starts them back up at the first sign of pain.
And yet, the Case-Shiller index measure of repeated sales, which removes the property-type mix, is flat or down.
That pretty much tells you the the 15% bump is due to an increasing proportion of “nicer” properties selling (at still discounted prices).
You forgot to add that this is the median price - a notoriously misleading statistic when used on its own.
All it may mean is that the mix of homes being sold has changed.
voice of san Diego chart
http://m.voiceofsandiego.org/mobile/toscano/article_a997184e-15ee-11df-91b6-001cc4c03286.html
Nice San Diego medium price per square foot chart to adjust for larger size houses over time. But it does show some increase per sq. Maybe there a greater percentage of houses selling in the better neighborhood now than a few year ago.
Any medium price per square foot charts for OC and individual neighboorhoods/towns?
Inflation is the middle class blane. Higher property taxes (non-CA) and higher marginal tax rates. Wages are the last to go up in the inflation train and the first to go down by jacking up unemployment rates. Are your expenses less, the same or more than 2 year ago? CPI says it less. My rent is up, insurances up, food down, clothing up, tuitions up, vacation cost about the same except cruises. Wage down. Saving down. Rent when up, then a little down.
A real world FHA scenario:
Irvine purchase, 15 year FHA fixed loan with 10% down. Buyer is getting a 4.5% rate (2/17/10) paying zero Up Front Mortgage Insurance Premium (1.75%, paid by lender at 4.5% rate) and zero Monthly Mortgage Insurance (not required with 15 yr fixed loans).
The buyer has covered all of their bases: - a sub 5% rate that is assumable, no PMI, fast pay down of debt. Yes, it’s a big nut per month, but not as big as one might think at that rate. A 30 yr fixed 5.0% rate for $417,000 with MMI is about $2,450. A 15 year 4.5% rate with no MMI is $3,190 - $740 per month more. The buyers look at it as $370 per paycheck which is manageable for them.
So in 5 years you’ve paid down your loan a bit, but want to move up. Someone wants to buy the property and assume your loan. Let’s say you have $100k equity, perhaps the buyer can put 10% down, offer to carry a $50,000 second TD at 8% providing that the buyer is well qualified. Another win IMHO.
Flexibility of options, not focusing on a low payment only, makes for a smarter buyer.
My .02c
Soylent Green Is People.
Is a loan like this available for investment property? Or only owner occupied?
FHA and VA loans are for Owner Occupied transactions only.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100217/ap_on_bi_ge/us_fed_economy
“By JEANNINE AVERSA, AP Economics Writer Jeannine Aversa, Ap Economics Writer – 22 mins ago
WASHINGTON – The Federal Reserve expects unemployment will stay high over the next two years because recession-scarred Americans are likely to stay cautious, making for only a moderate-paced economic recovery.”
Bad economy.. blame Joe 6-Pack. The new media to ignore bad economic policies and support BWB/BHO bailout of the banksters at any cost. Setting up a dip in unemployment right before the elections (in 2 years). The moral hazard for the banks started way before BWB and will continue long after BHO. You can fool some people all the time, you can’t fool all the people all the time, but that doesn’t matter because you only have to fool half of the people most of the time.
With continued high unemployment, how long will the banksters let people stand without paying? How long will the market manulipation continue?
Housing appreciation IS NOT a bonus.
It is INFLATION.
If you run the numbers, you’ll find that you are better off with NO APPRECIATION.
Fuck.
When will people get that SIMPLE FACT?
Probably never.
There is correlation between US inflation and housing, because Consumer Price Index includes housing costs. Nothing less, nothing more.
BINGO !!
Inflation isn’t the result of prices going up, but money supply increased and the RESULTS of this inflating are higher prices…
everything costs more, our Money has less value…
Inflation is a TAX on our prosperity in America.. the stealing of wealth by the BANKSTERS from the People…
The banks want to foreclose on you. Why? Because it looks like they are partaking in an insurance scam with homeowners caught in the middle:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/2/17/837819/-Banks-Want-to-Foreclose-on-You:-Heres-Why
Really, what this constitutes is a second bailout: the first was from the government and the second is now from the insurance industry. You gotta love the banksters.
Basically, it’s similar to buddy A taking a life insurance out of buddy B and making buddy B’s life miserable enough to commit suicide.