The financial planner who advocated HELOC abuse lost his house

Nov 17th, 2011  
by IrvineRenter  in Library News

Astute Observations

Astute Observation by awgee
2011-11-17 06:24 AM

“I should have known better. No matter how well things are going, borrowing 100 percent of the purchase price of a home is not a good idea.”

Our government disagrees with Mr. Richard.  It has enacted legislation that Fannie and Freddie must now guarantee refinanced home loans at 125 LTV and is encouraging home owners to do so.  Who do you think is smarter, Mr. Richards or our federal government?  My money is on Mr. Richards.

Astute Observation by SanJoseDavid
2011-11-17 09:57 AM

I would not even go so far as to blame government anymore.  The voters could fix the problem if they wanted to.  Since we have a country made up of mostly selfish houseowners and housedebtors, it is not in the interest of the majority to let house prices fall.  So we will continue to see policies that continue to throw good money after bad and prop up the system.

Once the homeownership rate drops below 50% then we will be able to have that discussion about unwinding these policies.  Until then, fat chance.

Astute Observation by Perspective
2011-11-17 10:12 AM

Fannie & Freddie can now refinance existing GSE loans regardless of LTV (HARP2).  So if you were underwater and so inclined, you could refinance a $500K mortgage on a house worth $250K or less.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2011-11-17 07:35 AM

A 3 bed 2 bath condo at $789,000 ?  Rental Parity is still here praise the lord.

Inventory was supposed to sky rocket by now, it’s below 800?
Irvine is not supposed to be different, yet it still is 6 years and counting.  It better become “not different” soon.

Astute Observation by Strategic Renter
2011-11-17 08:33 AM

So for example we take a doctor after 10 years of training and $250k of loans the best they can get is a condo. Lmao anyone who pays this for a condo without top floor white wave ocean views need to see a psychiatrist. Good luck to them if this is what they are prepared to live in I certainly would not.

Astute Observation by SanJoseDavid
2011-11-17 09:47 AM

Irvine is not supposed to be different, yet it still is 6 years and counting

PR, as we have noticed, the interest rates on 30 year mortgages have nose-dived in the last 6 years.  Would 789K be at rental parity if interest today’s interest rates had remained the same?  I’m thinking probably not.

Most people who are buying in Irvine are using financing, right?

Astute Observation by wheresthebeef
2011-11-17 11:03 AM

Don’t look now, even the GOP is proposing limiting mortgage interest deductions to help with the debt situation.  I imagine this would not be good for uber expensive parts of CA.

800K for a condo in Irvine?  I thought Irvine was known for its educated population and top notch schools. 

Maybe PR will buy this and use it as a rental since it’s at rental parity.  Bwhahahahaha!!!!

Astute Observation by Perspective
2011-11-17 11:46 AM

If the mortgage interest deduction were completely eliminated along with the ability to deduct property taxes, and rates were not decreased, my housing costs would increase ~$1,700 monthly.

This would really hit higher-priced areas like Irvine.  Strategic default is already very attractive.  Eliminate these housing deductions, and watch out below!

Astute Observation by awgee
2011-11-17 01:20 PM

I don’t know numbers, but some folks in what you refer to as the uber expensive areas do not have a mortgage.  They are fine with elimination or decrease in the MID.

Astute Observation by wheresthebeef
2011-11-17 02:19 PM

I fully support the government lowering the MID to something reasonable…say 500K.  This would have all sort of bad effects in SoCal real estate.  I’m sure this would affect not only the Newport Coast, Laguna Beach uber wealthy areas, but the Irvine and Laguna Niguels too.

Astute Observation by awgee
2011-11-17 02:52 PM

It seems like it would mostly affect the $600,000 to $1,200,000 homes.  Presently, the mortgage limit for the MID is $1,000,000 or $1,100,000, so anybody borrowing more than $1,100,000 can not legally deduct above that amount anyways.  And msot folks who borrow to buy do so based on their incomes, so in that range, they are affected by AMT on most of their other deductions already.

Astute Observation by Perspective
2011-11-17 03:12 PM

Our mortgage is < $600K and the AMT hit us at ~$3,500 in 2010, yet we still received a huge benefit from deducting mortgage interest.  I know this, because I removed it from TurboTax to see the effect of eliminating it.

Astute Observation by Perspective
2011-11-17 03:16 PM

I also support eliminating the MID.  You can remove it from vacation (second) homes, or lower the mortgage debt threshold to $500K.  Those are both completely reasonable. 

Although, the $500K limit across the US allows a farmer in Kansas to deduct the mortgage interest on a mansion while only allowing an Irvine resident to deduct the mortgage interest on a townhouse. You could limit it to the Fannie Mae Conforming Loan Limit, I guess.

Astute Observation by HydroCabron
2011-11-17 06:03 PM

I fully support the government lowering the MID to something reasonable…say 500K.  This would have all sort of bad effects in SoCal real estate.

You keep using that word bad. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Astute Observation by IrvineRenter
2011-11-17 06:07 PM

Yes, I think the effect would be great. It would lower prices, reduce borrower debt loads, and make prices more affordable.

Astute Observation by Chuck Ponzi
2011-11-17 10:53 AM

CP,

there are 2 sides to the rental parity seesaw.  Bubble heads were not completely wrong on the price side, but on the monthly howmuchamonth… yeah, dead right, all the way to the bank.

Don’t forget that.  Predicting the future is hard stuff.  It’s still hard to save up 225K to buy a condo.  Very few people have done it… which is why despite low inventory, prices aren’t going up.

Chuck

Astute Observation by Strategic Renter
2011-11-17 08:21 AM

Surely for a $631k mortgage the income required is $210k or are you playing the realtor game and stretching what you can borrow just because interest rates are so low at present. If you use the 3 times salary then when interest rates rise the amount buyers can borrow will not change with rate changes.

Astute Observation by Kyle
2011-11-17 08:59 AM

At 3% annual appreciation since 1988 (a bit generous given the state of the world economy, but for argument’s sake) this would be priced at $547,670. Still more than I would ever pay for a condo on a tiny lot. Poor value.

Astute Observation by SanJoseDavid
2011-11-17 09:52 AM

There is no magic 3% rule that says a house must appreciate 3% every year.  You could have 10 years of no appreciation followed by one year of high appreciation and when you look back it averages out to 3% per year over the last 10 years.

Applying 3% per year to the 1988 price to calculate what the price “ought be about” today is myopic.

Astute Observation by Kyle
2011-11-17 11:48 AM

If anything, your comment simply provides further support for my point: even assuming the “traditional” (and averaged—duh) 3% annual appreciation, the asking price is in delusion-land.

Astute Observation by awgee
2011-11-17 01:22 PM

Or you could have 3% appreciation in nominal USD and a concurent 10% annual devaluation of the currency, which is what I am forecasting, not predicting, will happen.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2011-11-17 03:00 PM

I agree with the forecast.

This should benefit those sitting on cash waiting and waiting to buy their family home??? Right ? Right? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?  Bueller?

$789,000 - 3 bed / 2 bath condo at rental parity- It’s party time!

Astute Observation by Boston2theBay
2011-11-18 10:42 AM

Only for an uninformed fool…of which there are many.

Astute Observation by SanJoseDavid
2011-11-17 09:42 AM

Taxpayers, get your wallets out: FHA Bailout on the way.

the federal agency that insures more than $1 trillion in mortgages faces a nearly 50 percent chance that it could need a taxpayer bailout next year, according to a government report released Tuesday.

Under the best-case projection, the report said, housing prices would drop just 3.8 percent this year and increase 1.3 percent next year.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2011-11-17 02:01 PM

The mistakes this guy made are really simple, and clearly outlined by Larry.  I don’t think people should be taking his advice now or in the future because he so easily made such bad decisions in the past.  Falling into bubble mentality is one of the things an adviser is supposed to guard you against.  If they can’t do it for themselves, you should really question if they’ll do it for you.

Astute Observation by Perspective
2011-11-17 03:21 PM

All you need to arrive at that conclusion was the very first part of his story.  He was seeking a job as a security guard and fell into working in a securities boiler room.  That’s how his “financial adviser” career started.

Astute Observation by Spokaneman
2011-11-18 09:43 AM

I’m no financial advisor, I would never want that responsibility, But.  Back in ‘06, a business acquaintance, a lawyer, whose husband is a stock broker, was building the big new dream house ($
800K in Spokane).  She asked me if I thought she should sell the old house before the new house was finished if a buyer came along.  My advice to her was absolutely, the market was hot at the time and I absolutely knew that the bubble was going to burst at some point in the not too distant future and from my perspective getting rid of the old house soonest even at the risk of the loss of a bit more appreciation vs. being stuck with a second house that you can’t sell was a good trade off.  That was my “advice”, which she acted on. Of course prices continued to increase for a few more months, and she was a bit peeved with me for having suggested that she sell immediately.

Last time I talked to her though, she finally saw the wisdom of my “advice”.

People generally do not want advice that conflicts with what they want to do.

Astute Observation by Jed Clampett
2011-11-17 07:07 PM

Thanks for that.

I just asked my imaginary financial planner for a copy of his credit report.

Astute Observation by Enm
2011-11-18 08:46 AM

Larry, great post! While I completely agree with your analysis, I would like to point out that Fallacy #1 is the most understandable. If you are starting a family and thinking about buying a home, being priced out for 10 years might as well be forever. In retrospect, people should have recognized the bubble and just waited it out by renting, but that wasn’t as obvious then as it is today.

Astute Observation by PasadenaGal
2011-11-18 10:05 AM

Greed, greed, and more greed…

Astute Observation by RagingRanter
2011-11-18 06:24 PM

I’m renting a beautiful home in Ottawa, Ontario right now for $1450 per month. If I were to buy it, it would cost me an extra thousand per month once insurance, condo fees, property taxes, mortgage insurance and mortgage interest were factored in. And that’s a very conservative estimate.

Here in Canada we haven’t had our housing bust yet. But it’s coming. It has to. My neighbours are living in identical units to myself and they’re paying $1000 per month more than me to live here? In their OWN houses??? How is that a sustainable over the long term? When prices get that far ahead of rents, you know there is going to be hell to pay.

The attitude amongst home owners and home buyers in Canada right now is, “We’re different. We never had NINJA mortgages and teaser rates like the US did, and our lending rules are tighter and blah blah blah blah…” Sure, this time is different.

They’re in for a hell of a shock. I don’t care how much better our lending rules are, interest rates have been so low for so long people just expect houses to go up forever. Sound familiar?

Astute Observation by sarah melville
2011-11-19 12:47 PM

I lived through the housing bubble in the SFBA and never bought into it. Our house in an up market neighborhood went tripled in value in a few years but we never pulled money out, never used it to finance our lifestyle - just kept our noses to the grindstone and lived within our means. Meanwhile I watched everyone around me buy luxury cars, go on dream vacations etc…they were living the life. Now, several years after the bust some of them are in financial straits - but what exactly does that mean? For the people I know it means that they still live in the nice house but instead of paying the exorbitant loans they took out they bank the money.  It means they still drive the mercedes and some of them still take the vacations - afterall they aren’t paying their mortgage anymore.  One friend is still making a lot of money and stopped paying the $5K mortgage in 2009 - she said it was good money after bad. Meanwhile she still travels, still lives great and has a huge financial cushion that I don’t have.  Is it rational to pull money out of your home in an expanding market and live really well when you can just walk away from it all later and in many cases still continue the lifestyle indefinitely? I didn’t go that route but if I had it to do all over again and I knew then what I know now - I’d be crazy not to.  On an individual basis this behavoir seems rational to me - but of course it has driven our economy to the brink. When my friend is walking down the street in Marin nobody knows she is one of the ones who fueled our current economic crisis - and until the day finally arrives that the bank locks her out of her home she really has not any negative consequences to her choices - and even then she is prepared and will move to a less affluent area and pay cash for an REO with all the money she’s saved. She’s an MBA and not stupid - in fact sometimes I feel like the stupid one.

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