House Prices Will Not Reach Bubble Highs for Over 15 Years

Apr 15th, 2010  
by IrvineRenter  in Library News

Astute Observations

Astute Observation by E
2010-04-15 03:57 AM

Obtained a few private loans to get through the recession?

WTF is that about?

Don’t people who purchase homes like that have stellar incomes?

Oh…wait.  The bulls all say that homes like this are purchased with “wealth” and not “income”.

So has the owners “wealth” run out?

If not, why take the loans?

Astute Observation by Freetrader
2010-04-15 04:32 AM

I like the way the realtor makes a point about the supposed “over $450,000 in upgrades!”  Interesting how if you take the original purchase price and add the $450k you get a number just above the current asking price.  It must be the right number, dammit!  Also, it’s only a 4% annual rate of return.  That’s reasonable, isn’t it?  The seller believes that he has an inelastic supply curve, apparently.

Astute Observation by Geotpf
2010-04-15 07:12 AM

The cost to the builder to build this house in the first place (not counting land or permits or infrastructure, just the labor and materials to actually build the house) was almost certainly less than $450,000.  $450k worth of upgrades my butt.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-04-15 02:21 PM

They forgot to mention the 90K Range Rover and 85K Escalade upgrade to the driveway.

Astute Observation by scott
2010-04-15 04:57 AM

Rents are now beginning to decline as well…

http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/2010/04/15/renters-costs-fell-0-7-in-march/62573/

Astute Observation by scott
2010-04-15 04:58 AM

BTW how does one draft a comment so that the ‘link’ is clickable?

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
Astute Observation by Chris
Astute Observation by Scott
2010-04-15 10:34 AM

Thank you kind sir.

Astute Observation by zubs
2010-04-15 03:32 PM

beginning?  ..more like it’s been happening since 2008.

Astute Observation by IrvineRenter
2010-04-15 06:25 AM

Lenders are starting to foreclose:

Foreclosures up in 1st quarter; real-estate owned at record

U.S. properties subject to foreclosure action in the first quarter rose 16% from the year-earlier quarter and 7% from fourth-quarter 2009, consultant RealtyTrac reported Thursday.

Real estate owned by lenders is at the highest level RealtyTrac has seen since it began reporting the data, Chief Executive James J. Saccacio said in a statement.

The report “may be further evidence that lenders are starting to make a dent in the backlog of distressed inventory that has built up over the last year as foreclosure-prevention programs and processing delays slowed down the normal foreclosure timeline,” he said.

Foreclosure filings—default notices, scheduled auctions and bank repossessions—were reported on more than 932,000 properties in the quarter. That means one in every 138 U.S. housing units received such a filing, the Irvine Calif., firm said.

In March, 367,000 properties were subject to foreclosure filings, up 8% from March 2009 and up 19% from February 2010.

Nevada for 13 quarters has been the state with the highest foreclosure rate, RealtyTrac reported. In first-quarter 2010, 1 in every 33 housing units in the state was subject to a foreclosure filing.

That’s more than four times the national average and is up nearly 15% from fourth-quarter 2009. More than 34,500 properties in the state received a filing in the first quarter, down 16% from first-quarter 2009.

Arizona was second with 1 in every 49 properties subject to a filing in Florida was third with one in every 57.

Ten states account for more than 70% of the foreclosure filings in the first quarter, RealtyTrac reported.

In absolute numbers, California’s more than 216,000 properties subject to a foreclosure notice accounted for 23% of the nation’s total.
Florida was second with more than 153,500 and Arizona was third, with nearly 55,700.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-04-15 08:50 AM

Jobless Claims Jump

Blamed on “administrative factors”

Labor department official’s professional expert opinion:

“I don’t think there is a whole lot of layoffs going on”

Yea, jobless claims are up.  Spending is up.  Up is down.  Down is up.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-04-15 09:13 AM

The squatter stimulus appears to be working.

Allow 2% of the population to live rent free and you have ample growth.  It helps that the 2% is the most irresponsible spenders.  S&P500; over 1200 it’s party time!!!

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-04-15 10:06 AM

I think it’s more a reflection of how the media misinterprets the signals and confuses the public. The media has been pumping a phony recovery to the masses over the past couple of months.  If you repeat it enough times, people will start believing it and will head back to the mall.

I fail to see how a dysfunctional job market leads to a “surge” in retail sales.  Perhaps more people went to the mall last weekend due to the media headfake.  Maybe there were some big seasonal sales or industry gimmicks that got the masses excited.

I would like to know which retail outlets experienced this “surge”.  Walmart?  Those gaudy shops at the mall?

Last few times I was in a Best Buy the place was completely dead.  10 employees per customer.  The TV and stereo sections basically empty.  Everyone was mostly in the computer and video game areas - not exactly big ticket items.

Astute Observation by scott
2010-04-15 10:37 AM

I think you have to look at what you are surging against - namely some really terrible numbers last year.  Its’ like saying my math grades surged from a F to a C.

Astute Observation by zubs
2010-04-15 03:34 PM

2% of the population living rent free…and you thought the stimulus was only for the banks.  There was trickle down after all!! Reagan and Laffer are right.

Astute Observation by mike23w
2010-04-15 10:11 AM

From the article:

Sacramento expected to return to peak value after 2039

lol

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-04-15 06:41 AM

I think your prognosis might be too agressive.  The real peak on Irvine was 2005.  Five years have passed.  That means only 10 years left for bubble pricing.  It’s possible but I think it will take longer. 

It would be nice to get back to some rental parity fundamentals on this blog.  It may be the only fundamental calculation left.

Astute Observation by E
2010-04-15 06:50 AM

Peak was in 2007.

Deal with it.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-04-15 07:19 AM

By 2007 most of the nice surrounding areas of irvine were already down 20%.  Irvine was down maybe 10%.  I’m not sure what I have to deal with, I have no debt.  You might have to deal with prices in Irvine being higher now than early 2009.  First we will need to get back to 2009 pricing.

Astute Observation by mike in irvine
2010-04-15 10:49 AM

This is Irvine, the bottom was in May 2009… and the peak…well, as I said before this is Irvine…there is no peak, just perpetual growth…given the current rate of appreciation, I predict that in 2036 people in Irvine will buy 3bdrm for 10 million with 30% down.

Astute Observation by Nick
2010-04-16 04:03 PM

PR - Statistically, there were very few neighborhoods that had any depreciation at all in 2007 in Irvine.  The facts are out there.  Late 2007 is when you saw a bit of depreciation beginning to creep into the market. 

Places like San Diego started early…2005.  Most of LA started in 2006.  And for a variety of reasons, many neighborhoods in OC started in late 2007.

That being said, as IR often mentions, there are several factors going away that artificially flattened prices (prices did not go up, only the median).  They were, superficially low interest rates dues to Bernanke’s purchases of MBS, the $8k housing credit, and the temporary holding back of foreclosures.  If you track sales on a house-by-house basis, pricing started dipping again in late January/early February of this year.

We have at least two more years of dropping prices before we reach rental parity.  And as many have mentioned, rents continue to drop, this will not bode well in the medium term for prices either and moves the target lower.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2010-04-15 08:09 AM

This property has to be competing with new custom construction.  How much would it cost to build a comparable home, where they buyer would get everything exactly how they want it?  If I’m paying $2M, I’m getting exactly what I want - I hold that opinion at 1/4 the price point, but everyone has a price point beyond which compromise isn’t an option.

Astute Observation by wheresthebeef
2010-04-15 09:22 AM

2.5M for a 3500 sq ft tract house in Irvine, one word…NO.

You can get on the 73 and drive south a few miles to Laguna Niguel and buy a similar brand new house in a guard gated community (San Joaquin Hills) for half the price or less.  The Irvine premium is not that strong.

Great article on return back to peak pricing no time soon.  California is in massive financial trouble, did anybody notice that the city of LA increased DWP customer rates yesterday so the city could survive for another few months.  We will be hearing more and more of these stories in the near future.  And there is no way any of this will be good for RE prices.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-04-15 09:26 AM

I completely agree with you.  There are also high quality schools in and around these areas.  In fact it’s quite possible that your children will do better in these schools and go on to better colleges.  The irvine premium is real to a group of people.  The reasons for some may be misguided.

Astute Observation by Foreclosure-rates-surge
Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-04-15 10:12 AM

There’s plenty more where that came from.

Astute Observation by lowrydr310
2010-04-15 11:18 AM

40,000 just doesn’t seem like that big of a number - I would have expected that number is significantly higher.

40,000 homes coming on the market over a period of two years will certainly have some effect, but how devastating could it really be?

Now those homes, combined with that evil dark scary monster we know as ‘shadow inventory’ coming on the market, could do some damage.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-04-15 10:30 AM

Soros not having a warm and fuzzy about The Financial Recovery. What does he know anyway. PFFF

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-04-15 10:34 AM

Mortgage Modifications continue to fail

Treasury department has no explanation… (too much debt maybe?)

Astute Observation by lowrydr310
2010-04-15 10:45 AM

Are there any good resources for SD real estate trends? I never in a million years thought I’d consider living in SD, but my employer has a good opportunity for me there that I’m strongly considering.

Astute Observation by lowrydr310
2010-04-15 11:06 AM

Just to clarify - San Diego, NOT South Dakota. Anything similar to the IHB for San Diego?

Astute Observation by Misstrial
2010-04-15 12:02 PM

<a >

As much as I hate city-data forum, you may want to visit the San Diego forum:

<a >

Patrick sometimes links to signsonsandiego.com for housing bubble articles.

~Misstrial

Astute Observation by Misstrial
2010-04-15 12:04 PM

Sorry, links do not appear:

http://forums.redfin.com/t5/San-Diego/bd-p/SanDiego

http://www.city-data.com/forum/san-diego

Astute Observation by Passerby
2010-04-15 12:24 PM

Many of the areas that you would probably consider in San Diego are stuck in a similar holding pattern to that of Irvine.  Some areas in the county have been hard hit and others have seen very little decline, so far. 

The best site I’ve found for analysis is through Rich Toscano’s, Piggington.com.  He also writes for Voice of San Diego and posts new articles to the site about once a week.  (Hint: He’s still renting)

For another perspective, you might try Jim the Realtor’s site.  He posts some good information for North County coastal markets.

But no, SD has no IHB equivalent.  At least not since oc_renter retired from blogging.

Astute Observation by zubs
2010-04-15 03:39 PM

Jim the Realtor…ask him

Astute Observation by Misstrial
2010-04-15 03:42 PM

I miss oc_renter’s blog - I guess it was that Cary Burch (sp?) situation that got the best of him.

Anyway, the North County Times has a great article from Wednesday on the coming foreclosure surge for SD:

http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_fa8b8a2a-0fc6-526a-b125-d86bec3d79c4.html

~Misstrial

Astute Observation by Stock Investor
2010-04-15 10:55 AM

IrvineRenter: “The predicted time of peak-to-peak recovery ranges from 2019 to 2033 with an average of 2028.”

Note: It is pseudoscientific shamanism to average these values.

For example, I have 10 inch (height) black cat and 40 inch white horse. However, there is no average (10+40)/2=25 inch gray animal.

Astute Observation by IrvineRenter
2010-04-15 01:01 PM

“Note: It is pseudoscientific shamanism to average these values.”

Note: all market divination is pseudoscientific shamanism. If you think another statistical method of analysis will get any closer to the truth, you are fooling yourself. There are too many variables to be accurate by any method.

Astute Observation by Stock Investor
2010-04-15 03:25 PM

If you really believe so, please explain why you are predictiong the great unpredictable.

In quantum mechanics, there is Heisenberg uncertainty principle. It makes a lot of things unpredictable, but helps to build very predictable A-bombs.

I think that some methods are definitely better than others. By the way, that is why I like this blog.

Astute Observation by gray4gray
2010-04-15 12:16 PM

Someone bought one close by?
$2,000,000
28 WOODS Trl
Sold on Mar 12, 2010   0.05 miles
5 bd / 4 ba
3,800 Sq. Ft.

Astute Observation by mike in irvine
2010-04-15 01:11 PM

At the moment all homes, below 800k, have a hidden premium of 30-40k due to the tax break. Assuming that the tax break will expire, will it translate to a 30-40k drop in the median after april 30th or so…dont know. What is your opinion? I feel that the current spike sales is due to the tax breaks expiring in a couple of weeks.
What happens to the knife catchers are trying to flip before the deadline.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-04-15 01:33 PM

House prices, incomes, and down payments for Irvine are so high that the $8k tax break is virtually meaningless.

Astute Observation by TustinRenter
2010-04-15 04:51 PM

I will pay cash for my next Irvine home when the price makes sense. I re-initiated my search the last month or so due to the tax credit. If I didn’t think the long-slow-bleed was coming, the looming expiration would have definitely spurred action.
When you drive an old Honda and haven’t taken a vacation in years, reading IHB’s abuse stories is sickening.  Don’t underestimate the appeal of “getting yours” even if what you get is a tiny fraction of the grifters windfalls.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-04-15 06:35 PM

If you are able to pay cash for your Irvine home I’m surpised that your income isn’t too high for the tax credit.  Your income only needs to be over 250k and you don’t get the tax credit.  Nice job saving all that cash.

Astute Observation by TustinRenter
2010-04-16 07:08 PM

Good observation.  I’m a building subcontractor who profited from the boom, anticipated the crash, and didn’t leverage. BTW, I never made over $350k even at the top.

Astute Observation by newbie2008
2010-04-15 07:53 PM

The greater fool comes to mind.
At above $1 million, the banks will not likely want to play this round with a nothing down loan.  May HELOC in the future, but for now is will be a significant amount of cash needed.

As for the $8000 tax credit not being a factor, dream on.  Say house is for $700,000, FHA 3.5% down, 1.5 % other closing cost. $35,000 needed to close less $8000 fed credit, less $3000 state credit, so only $24,000 to buy a $700k house.  For many, $400,000 purchase price is likely, so only $9000 to close or purchase a house.  They can stop paying until after the next election. In the inland empire and mid-American, the house price is under $200K, which is back to essentially no money down loans!  Now that’s a win-win-win for the borrowers, the banks and political parties.  Free rent and getting the bad loans off the bank’s books.  Great stimulus package for the poor folks-We feel your pain and let me help you.  Only losers are the taxpayers, who will pay for the free rent, house upkeep, bad loan, local property taxes, back payments on the utilities , banks fees, attorney fees for the eventual FC, REA fees, closing cost and depreciation.

There are lots of condo’s for under $500,000 in Irvine.  And most families in Irvine have income under $100k, so $11,000 is a big deal for them

Astute Observation by Gray
2010-04-16 02:06 AM

$450,000 in upgrades? Maybe I’m under illusions what can be bought nowadays with such an amount of money,  but I don’t see this in the picture. Probably the photographer’s fault, I guess. He should have taken pictures of the golden shower curtains, too! And the realtor should have given a notice that the kitchen appliances aren’t stainless steel, but pure platinum!
oh oh

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