Foreclosure Delays May Catalyze Downward Spiral in House Prices

Oct 28th, 2010  
by IrvineRenter  in Library News

Astute Observations

Astute Observation by Art VanDelay
2010-10-28 04:41 AM

Finally!  (Update on the Simi Valley psycho couple).  Sorry, slightly off topic.

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2010/oct/26/simi-family-locked-out-of-their-foreclosed-home/

Astute Observation by VangodDam
2010-10-28 12:48 PM

So the new owner lost their prospective buyer.  I think Conejo Capital Partners may have a lawsuit against Michael “Were gonna sue everybody…” Pines.

At the very least, shouldn’t he get disbarred for advising his clients to commit a felony.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-10-28 01:27 PM

I had the same question.  Why is this lawyer being allowed to practice some form of alternate universe law?

He even claimed that he was going to have armed  people escort the family back to break into the house again.      LOL.  That’s not a dumb idea at all!  I’m sure the cops will see your guns and quiver in their boots!

Astute Observation by snidely whiplash
2010-10-28 06:17 PM

re: the article.  who the f would rent a house to these people?  what’s their FICO? 390?

Astute Observation by Kelja
2010-10-28 08:06 AM

Why does the mainstream press continue to categorize the foreclosure problem as one of ‘sloppy’ paperwork?

They broke laws and knew they were breaking laws - it was fraud. How come so few actual notes are turning up? Note, note, where’s the note? They were burned, shredded or buried (or all three). The notes will not be found.

Yes, the borrower who isn’t paying should be foreclosed on. But, by whom? Who actually is in possession of the note?

Astute Observation by Honcho
2010-10-28 08:40 AM

I am assuming that you aren’t a lawyer.  Or, in any event, you aren’t familiar with foreclosures in California.

You do not need possession of the note to effect a lawful non-judicial foreclosure in California.  In fact, one attorney who was behind this movement lost his law license after filing thousands of these lawsuits in California.  He also settled with the state of California by agreeing to pay over $1 million dollars in restitution to defaulted borrowers who paid him.

I was a lawyer representing servicers and lenders in many of these lawsuits that were filed against my clients.  I will tell you that we had EVERY SINGLE NOTE in our possession in these cases in the event some judge actually said that we had to “produce the note.”  But, that is not the law and we were NEVER, not one time, required to “produce the note.”

This is a dead movement.  The argument has shifted to one of assignments (this is why the paperwork is an issue). This argument will also fail for these defaulted borrowers.  At best for these defaulted borrowers, it will simply delay lawful foreclosures.

Astute Observation by Andrew
2010-10-30 12:34 AM

I am genuinely curious.

If you are not required to produce the paperwork… exactly what stops someone from foreclosing on property for which they do not hold the mortgage.

I mean, if I don’t have to show documentation that I’m the person owed money on the mortgage on the property… this seems like a serious problem.  Even if I could prove that the mortgage isn’t being paid, if I don’t hold the mortgage, I certainly shouldn’t be allowed to take possession of the property.

Does this all rest on the supposed “good faith” of bankers not to make claims related to mortgages that they don’t hold?

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-10-28 12:27 PM

Well for all of this obvious “fraud” that ignited the nation’s righteous indignation a couple of weeks ago - it sure is becoming less and less of a story these days.  You know the media is out there looking for victims to create a great sensational story.  It seems that they sure aren’t finding a whole lot…

So what if the paperwork was “robosigned” - it doesn’t change the fact that you stopped paying your damn mortgage 2 years ago.

I am tired of hearing about this non-issue.  Let the foreclosures resume immediately.  Hire more robosigners and get these people out of our houses.

Astute Observation by Honcho
2010-10-28 02:25 PM

“Hire more robosigners and get these people out of our houses.”

Love it.

Astute Observation by Swiller
2010-10-29 06:39 AM

10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea. LOVE IT!!! Make it all of them in the world.

Astute Observation by Kelja
2010-10-28 08:54 AM

You are absolutely right - I am not a lawyer. But what happens if all the notes were purposely destroyed?

I also think the foreclosure process will be drawn out even further than it already is. And, what will be the repercussions of that? I think it will be bad for the market - it introduces more uncertainty on top of what is already out there.

Buyers will become more reluctant. More people will do strategic defaults (after all, they can stay in their homes for years and not pay).

And all those holders of the securitized mortgages will attempt to put those back to the banks.

One thing for sure, it good for your business!

Astute Observation by Honcho
2010-10-28 09:58 AM

There are legal procedures and mechanisms in place in the event that a note is lost or destroyed.  It’s an easy fix. But again, I never handled a case where we didn’t have possession of the note and I handled a lot of cases.

Based on what you have stated, I’m not sure what grounds there are for your statement that “all of the holders of the securitized mortgages will attempt to put those back to the banks.” Simply because there are delays in foreclosures and uncertainty in real estate markets?

But you are right, this is good for the legal business right now.

Astute Observation by Kelja
2010-10-28 01:13 PM

What if it is found that those foreclosing have doctored the notes or have destroyed them on purpose?

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-10-28 01:37 PM

Explain to me what a “doctored note” is.  The first thing that comes to mind is that BOA sees that AZDavidPhx paid cash for his place.  They didn’t like that so they conjured up a mortgage note and foreclosed him in order to steal his property.

Is that what you are claiming the banks are up to?

Or are you just playing games with semantics?  The debtor signs the note and the bank destroys it.  So what?  That does not entitle Joe Deadbeat to stop paying the loan.  The bank then reconstructs the note.  OOOOOO!  Scandalous!

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-10-28 01:48 PM

This “Show Me The Note” garbage reminds me of the old miranda rights myth that went something along the line of if the police did not read you your rights then you cannot be convicted of a crime.  The criminal sitting in court admitting that he committed the crime but arguing that his rights were not read to him so he should be free to go.

Same difference, the house debtors admitting that they are in default but claiming they should not be evicted because the original note was not read to them.

And all these sheeple going along with this nonsense because they are so blinded by their banker-hatred.

Ridiculous.

Astute Observation by irsx0
2010-10-28 01:48 PM

What incentive would drive a bank to destroy a note?  As in, what do the bank get in return for making a note “disappear?”  I cant think of a good reason.

Astute Observation by Anonymous
2010-10-28 09:16 AM

Much more painful in Spain where bankruptcy doesn’t wipe out mortgage debt, and banks can tack on any fees, charges, and interest they like and garnish your income forever.

In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/28/world/europe/28spain.html?pagewanted=1&hp;

Astute Observation by Perspective
2010-10-28 10:04 AM

Mortgage debt in Spain is like student loan debt here - it’s yours, forever!

Astute Observation by Anonymous
2010-10-28 10:24 AM

I feel sorry for the 23 year old jobless daughter who co-signed as guarantor for her Dad’s apartment loan.  Her life is ruined now.

Astute Observation by Tony
2010-10-28 10:43 AM

Can she move to Portugal, France or Italy to avoid the debt and start over? Or will the debt follow her if she moves to another EU nation?

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-10-28 12:30 PM

How barbaric!  How are these folks supposed to borrow and spend money on things they cannot aford when they are forced to pay it all back?  This is crazy!

Astute Observation by Anonymous
2010-10-28 10:05 AM

http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=25923795&GT1=35010

“The average length of time from default to eviction is 400 days in California, Fredman says.”

Astute Observation by Serenity Now
2010-10-28 10:34 AM

I’m waiting for a website to come along that will take your zip code and lender and give you “Average Squatting Time” based on your situation. The real time AST could help individuals decide whether or not to squat. Advertisement space on the site could be sold to attornies, BMW dealerships and RV dealerships.

Astute Observation by Perspective
2010-10-28 10:47 AM

That’s a reasonable business idea.  You also want to buy that shiny new car before your credit is shot (because you won’t be able to after a couple missed payments, but also, to help rebuild your credit score faster).

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-10-28 12:33 PM

What’s the average eviction time for renters?  Couple months?

Astute Observation by Laura Louzader
2010-10-28 07:00 PM

Depends on the jurisdiction. Local laws and ordinances apply. In Chicago, it will almost certainly take at least 4 months if the lessor moves on the situation very quickly and follows procedure to the letter, and evictions cannot take place during the deep winter months, particularly if children, elders, or disabled or ill people are involved.

In St. Louis, it took perhaps 3 months at the most for non-payment.

Best to know your local rental laws very well if you want to play landlord with your underwater house. A procedural error can result in the tenant poaching an entire year’s free housing off you, or suing you for a largish sum of money. Any landlord who tries to negotiate this situation without competent legal assistance is suicidal.

Astute Observation by s
2010-10-28 12:25 PM

“Anyone who is not already over-indebted, has a job, and has good credit can borrow plenty.”

I. R. I am one who meets those criteria, but I just don’t want to borrow again. After 2 1/2 years of readership, I am on a continuous path of de-leveraging that will last several more years. I often observe here that my generation is held liable for much of this mess, but I am of the opinion that we do not represent the majority of the HELOC abusers. That said, I beleive that my generation has committed some dreadful errors in planning (not planning) for retirement, bordering on magical thinking. By the simple act of long term de-leveraging, I am keeping a portion of my income out of the economy. Aggressive savings takes more out.

Had I not sipped some Kool-Aid earlier, I wouldn’t be engaged in such a thrifty regime now. What saved me was never exceeding a 50% LTV at any time. Better late than never.

S.B.

Astute Observation by Misstrial
2010-10-31 06:20 PM

S:

In my experience, each and every one of the heloc abusers I’ve personally met is a member of your generation.

Every one.

From paying their kids’ student loans and college costs (rather than require their kids to work through school or earn grants) to plastic surgery to spa vacations to Escalades or tricked-out Explosions with spinner rims to $100k per year living expenses to continue the facade despite a job loss - yep - your generation did it all.

It was as though these people were either tempting fate or trying to establish their own reality….very sad and I fear for my country.

Astute Observation by Kelja
2010-10-28 01:09 PM

Way things are going, it might be possible to get foreclosed on, have your good credit ruined but then have your credit repaired by the time you’re kicked out of your own house.

Astute Observation by Sue in Irvine
2010-10-28 01:17 PM

Made me laugh LOL

Astute Observation by HydroCabron
2010-10-28 02:22 PM

Hee-hee!

Banks make money by lending it. If there is a lack of customers with sufficiently high scores, the banks will adjust their standards downward accordingly. If nearly everyone has garbage credit, then garbage is the new normal, and will be deemed creditworthy.

I believe what you propose in jest will actually be the case. Borrowers more than 2 years out of foreclosure will be eligible for decent rates.

Astute Observation by AZDavidPhx
2010-10-28 02:49 PM

Yes, with each new loan, the banks are indeed literally making money ( out of thin air ).  Why aren’t the lawyers for these defaulters barking up the “unlawful consideration” tree?

The entire real estate “lending” game now is all about what the banks can dump on the taxpayer if things don’t work out.  If too many people have bad credit scores then the tax payer will have to insure more “loans”.  The Government shall step right up and do so for the sake of “helping” us continue to prop up prices.

I suppose at some point nobody will want to use our currency, but let future administrations deal with that problem when the time comes.

Astute Observation by RedBear
2010-10-28 03:52 PM

“That is one of the first acknowledgments of the plight of new buyers I have seen in the media. Everyone is so focused on helping out the deadbeats being foreclosed on that we forget that a new buyer—a buyer willing to pay the mortgage—is waiting to move in to their new home. The idea that delinquent borrowers should have their debts forgiven because of a procedural error is ridiculous.”
Hey, that is definitely a move in the right direction!
How about a Class action against the banks who resisted (most of them!) the market correction to allow buyers to buy a house at a fair price by withholding inventory from the market? I’m sure will be plenty of victims, I’m one! IR, you have hundreds of examples of properties with troubled mortgages that are not timely foreclosed on, aren’t you?! Any lawyers out there want to tackle a case like that?

Astute Observation by Khan
2010-10-28 05:55 PM

Where were you when we were discussing about knife catching will result in deep and serious personal financial losses?  Because of your knife catching action, the market stays at the same elevated WTF level.  Could we sue you and the knife catchers for keeping the market at such elevated WTF level?

Regret is not an excuse.

Astute Observation by RedBear
2010-10-28 07:58 PM

Dude,
WTF are you talking about?
Can’t you read?
I sad I’m a victim because I don’t want to buy a house at the WTF price and banks prevent prices from coming down! I’ve been renting since 2004 and patiently waiting for the unavoidable correction. Now, thanks to amend-extend-pretend by the banks and all this foreclosure-gate bulls…t lately, who knows how much longer this will drag. What knife catching action are you talking about? I could buy the house I rent in Irvine for cash - but I refuse, because of the above…. So, thanks for adding insult to the injury!

Astute Observation by BD
2010-10-28 07:38 PM

Now the next level down begins to appear.  Newport Coast, Laguna, and anything coastal - oh and Irvine are now slowly experiencing what took only months to happen in other areas.  These area owners have more resources and will hold on longer and endure more pain in general.  Prices may ‘spike’ lower but, are more likely to experience a slow grind lower to a true equilibrium with income and savings. 

I’ve said it before.  This is the worst time to buy a house in our area in 100 years.  You can buy now and get an artificially low rate of 4.25% on a 30 year fixed only to try and sell 10 years from now to someone who has to buy with a 7.5% 30 yr fixed.  This will take 30% plus of purchasing power and carrying costs.  You will loose money after a decade of owning!  Don’t believe it???  Look at Japan!  We are becoming Japan… 25 years of slowly depreciating RE. 

Tell me why it’s not so…

BD

Astute Observation by Andrew
2010-10-30 12:44 AM

I can’t say whether it is so or not, but there is a notable difference between the U.S. and Japan.  We are experiencing population growth—and in particular, population growth of young people.

While we have our own demographic mess coming, it is much less severe than Japan’s.

Our population-growth ponzi scheme may work for many more decades before leaving some (potentially as-yet unborn) generation holding the empty bag.

Or it may all blow up in the next couple of decades if we do something to make the U.S. an undesirable place for immigrants.  (Since our birth rate isn’t high enough even to keep a constant population, let alone a growing one).

Astute Observation by Chris
2010-10-28 07:56 PM

Not sure if this was posted earlier but you can now get title insurance on REOs based on CR’s post:

REO Title Insurance

Go get your REOs while the price is hot wink

Astute Observation by Andrew
2010-10-30 12:52 AM

I’m definitely an amateur here, since I was still in school the last time buying property made a lick of sense…

But, the article says that people will be able to buy title insurance on these properties… but does title insurance routinely protect against all possible problems?  Or are there exceptions, like in all of the other types of insurance that I carry?

Also, limitations?  Is the coverage just for purchase price?  Would it also cover the cost of any legal action?

Astute Observation by Bitter Renter
2010-11-03 07:05 PM

The Robo-Signing Terminator stuff was cute, IR.

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