Federal Reserve Policy Fails to Meet Its Goals to Save Real Estate Values

Nov 5th, 2010  
by IrvineRenter  in Library News

Astute Observations

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-11-05 06:36 AM

If Las Vegas is a success of the free market when unemplyment is trending above 15% then the great depression was a monumental free market achievement.

Las Vegas is a train wreck because of market manipulation. 

As interest rates continue decline as I have predicted with new quantitative easing the impact on both Irvine and Las Vegas will continue to be the same.

There already is inflation and wage inflation you need to look in the right places.  If you are taking a bigger picture view you won’t see it.

Astute Observation by Swiller
2010-11-05 07:07 AM

Wage inflation isn’t happening for us “po’ folk”, it’s happening for the rich. The have’s and the have not’s are more clearly divided every single day.

If you happened to be born at the right time during America’s golden era after WWII (you know, when the wealthy were taxed 90%, our social structure was the envy of other nations…social security for our elderly, schools, roads, health care, all excellent, but hey, socialism sucks right?) If you were born at the right time, you could of invested in a turd and reaped interest and gained in wealth.

Anyone that bought property during these times was assured massive wealth, a place to draw upon for investments, college tuition for the family, or simply a place to live free and clear of debt (that’s the PLAN at least right?). It’s the reason you have so many pseudo-rich in places like Irvine and Newport Beach. Most of these people couldn’t afford to buy in the same neighborhood they now live due to the manipulation of our currency. If you want to find the truth “Follow the money”.

Watch Zeigeist - the movie, if you can dare question what you have believed to be the truth for so long. Beginning is horribly boring, but it gets very good…very, very good.

http://vimeo.com/13726978

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-11-05 07:17 AM

This was my exact point but don’t segregate the rich, the well to do in the right areas are also seeing wage inflation.  At the same time inflation is occurring in many life necessities even though the larger picture says disinflation.  Obviously this is bad for the poor, lower middle class, and the old median.

Market manipulation has created relative stability in Irvine.

The same market manipulation has created a near depression like environment in Las Vegas.

To expect any different as interest rates trend lower would be foolish.  Quantitative easing is exactly what caused the Las Vegas and Irvine environments.

Astute Observation by Anonymous
2010-11-05 09:33 AM

Stock up on nonperishable food. Commodity futures up due to bad farming weather, it’s gonna get more expensive at the grocery store soon.

Astute Observation by Geotpf
2010-11-05 11:02 AM

OMG THE SKY IS FALLING.  You better take colloidal silver due to the upcoming shortage of antibiotics.  Just ignore the fact that your skin will turn blue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2297471.stm

Astute Observation by Anonymous
2010-11-05 02:34 PM

Higher commodity prices are already here. It’s just a matter of time before retainers and food manufacurers
pass them along to the consumer.

http://chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/10/mcdonalds-plans-to-raise-prices-in-2011.html

Astute Observation by Eat that!
2010-11-05 10:09 AM

I don’t think you can have ‘market manipulation’ and ‘stability’ in the same sentence.  That’s cognative dissonance.

Yes, QE2 will drive down interest rates but not far enough or fast enough to save those who are sitting on the IO-ARMs time bombs.  Or even for who bought relatively recently using the affordability product of 3.5% down FHA loans since to able to refi you need to bring more money to the table due to the changes in the insurance effective at the beginning of October.  We need to have competitive commericial mortgage products again and that won’t happen until the foreclosures are flushed from the market, unemployment falls and we have a new booming economy.  The Fed droping rates isn’t a sign of an improving ecomony, its’ a sign of panic.

Astute Observation by darms
2010-11-06 10:47 AM

I bought in Austin, TX back in 1992 - good thing, I could not afford this same house today. And while it may have increased in <strike>value</strike> price since then, the increase was nothing like what you folks in Irvine saw.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2010-11-05 07:05 AM

The author is wrong when he writes “2. The Fed has pushed down mortgage rates by buying over 10% of all outstanding mortgages in the U.S.—all the toxic garbage loans which the banks were desperate to get off their crippled balance sheets.”

The fed’s purchases were of newly issued GSE securities which are of much higher quality than the toxic assets people think of.  The toxic assets are tranches of MBS based on subprime/alt-a poor collateral, no underwriting mortgages.  The MBS’s the fed bought were at a time when underwriting was much stronger and collateral was not nearly as inflated.

Irvine is different.  The fed’s actions affect the nation as a whole, and that it might be distorting the Irvine market is not reason to let the rest of the country overcorrect.  We looked at a new construction home around this time last year by a builder that built a nearly identical home in a nearly identical neighborhood in 2003.  If you take 3%/yr inflation over that period, the sales prices of $485k in 2003 is almost identical to the $575k price in 2009.  Another very similar new home sold recently for the same $/sqft.  Prices in many areas have not seen the dramatic shifts that the bubble areas have seen.

The fed doesn’t care about ever selling their MBS’s.  They can just hold them till people refi & the principal is returned

Astute Observation by Swiller
2010-11-05 07:25 AM

2003 2.1
2004 2.7
2005 4.1
2006 3.3
2007 2.3
2008 5.8
2009 0.0
2010 0.0

COLA charts from SS.

Even using that horrid example (there’s no way in CA out cost of living only averaged 2.5% per year, shit my government taxes, fees, medical costs (from 2007- 2010 my medical coverage costs went up 956%, how about yours?), went up a helluva lot more than that.

Winston, I like your posts, they get me to think and dig around a bit. It’s in the plutocracies best interest to keep housing prices high. You NEED a place to live, when prices are high, you pay more in interest, you pay more in taxes, and if you rent, you pay more simply due to the cost of housing in general. It’s a form of slavery, and one we have put on without a second thought….DEBT SLAVERY. It is designed this way.

Then you have the really intelligent calling for no forgiveness of debt of individuals, but totally support and allow the forgiveness of debt of corporations.

We as a nation as in for big troubles, thankfully or hopefully, I’ll be dead before the real shit hits the fan. Sorry kids, Daddy tried.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2010-11-05 08:15 AM

I disagree with the idea that prices are high everywhere.  Relative to what?  You had markets with obscenely high prices (CA/FL/NV/AZ), but for the most part (seems like Irvine excluded) they have come back to early 00’s or even earlier price levels.

I also disagree with the idea that prices move inversely with mortgage rates (hard to find historical data to back that up).  When we were looking at homes in ‘09 we had the option of 100% financing at 6.25%.  We ended up under 5%, but that didn’t change the amount we would have paid for a given home.  Where markets are most sensitive to small changes in mortgage rates is where people are devoting the largest percentage of their income to their home payment.

There is massive debt ‘forgiveness’ for individuals.  If you go through a foreclosure, for the most part those debts are gone.  Granted we haven’t put our biggest banks through anything close to foreclosure, but we aren’t holding people unconditionally to their debt.

Astute Observation by irvine_home_owner
2010-11-05 11:33 AM

“You had markets with obscenely high prices (CA/FL/NV/AZ), but for the most part (seems like Irvine excluded) they have come back to early 00’s or even earlier price levels.”
Why is that?

It’s a serious question. So many people in the comments bash Irvine yet no one has explained why many areas have retained their pricing levels even higher than the first 5 years of 2000.

And I still hear crickets when I ask about how did Woodbury sell 700+ homes in less than a year when many of the doubters here and elsewhere didn’t think they could sell half that in more than a year.

Astute Observation by tenmagnet
2010-11-05 11:48 AM

That’s an excellent point.
No one, other than TIC, seems to acknowledge the positive rising demand that Irvine is experiencing.
More housing product keeps coming to market, where else is in the country is that occurring?

Astute Observation by bltserv
2010-11-05 01:13 PM

The Woodbury sales are hard to understand. With all that development, why are the businesses in the Woodbury Center struggling ? Peppinos is gone. That Home Depot is always empty. The Ralphs is terrible. The fruit and perishables are always right on the edge. Other than The Counter and LA Fitness the place is not doing very well at all.  Is it all Asians and Cash or what ? I see Laguna Crossing going in. Where are these high paying jobs coming from to pay for this expansion ?
It sure isnt from Quail Hill owners trading up.
They are all underwater ?

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-11-05 01:18 PM

It’s more convenient to avoid reality, the reality that the boom and bust and subsequent rounds of quantitative easing has fueled the economic haves at the expense of the have nots.  The flight from low quality assets to high quality assets is a transfer of money surgically designed.

It’s more convenient to look at overall unemployment, median income, and inflation and say that everyone is impacted equally.  It’s difficult for some to accept this has never been the case.

In the mean time the median down payment on an Irvine home continues to be over 20%.  Why doesn’t Las Vegas have the same?

Astute Observation by awgee
2010-11-06 05:53 AM

How do you know what the Fed bought?  Bernanke has refused to release that info.

Astute Observation by AbroadThankGod
2010-11-05 07:38 AM

It’s the debt impact on future generations that infuriates me. It’s a cash grab by Baby Boomers and loan owners - pure and simple. They’d rather see their children and grandchildren live in a cardboard box than consider losing any of their pulled forward “wealth.”

If the men and women of WW2 are the “greatest generation” then I would argue the Baby Boomers are the “most selfish generation,” leaving their children worse off than they are for the first time in the history of this country.

Astute Observation by Anonymous
2010-11-05 09:41 AM

I thing every generation has borrowed and pushed the debt forward. The Ponzi scheme kept working because people
had a lot of kids and worker productivity kept going up a lot. But now with less people in the pipe after the baby boomers, and the rest of the world having the necessary infrastructure to compete with the US worker, the Ponzi scheme isn’t working so well.

Astute Observation by BeachRenter
2010-11-05 08:43 AM

Irvine Renter,

I have to question one statement from todays entry -

“of course, I don’t believe those properties will fall 40% more in value, and frankly, even if they did, I wouldn’t care because i bought them for their current cashflow not their resale value.”

I would think that a 20% drop, let alone a 40% hit would be devastating to your cash flow properties. Who, in their right minds would rent if the house next door could be bought for significantly less.  Hell, in Vegas you would be able to by a house working at In-N-Out.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-11-05 08:50 AM

I believe IR has the potential to be successful in his endeavor.

However I agree with your sentiment.  He makes it out to be far less risky than it is, not sure if this is his bias or a sales tactic.  Most likely it’s a combination of both but mostly mental speculative bias on current cash flow.

Astute Observation by tenmagnet
2010-11-05 09:34 AM

Am I missing something?
The goal of IR’s fund to purchase at a discount and flip and not hold for cash flow.

Both of the LV properties profiled yesterday we’re purchased by IR’s fund to flip.
What does cash flow have to do with this?

Astute Observation by Alan
2010-11-05 01:16 PM

I was going to ask the same thing. Are the 2 properties mentioned in LV exceptions to the plan because they presented quick and substantial profit, or is cashflow the just the backup position in case quick flips don’t materialize?

Astute Observation by IrvineRenter
2010-11-06 08:32 AM

The fund only purchases to resell. I am personally planning on buying cashflow properties for my own account. I have been contacted by many others that want the same.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2010-11-05 09:18 AM

I think IR is exaggerating a little.  As for Vegas, if prices fell another 40% their Case-Shiller index would be 60.  In 1987, it was 67.  I don’t think those numbers are inflation adjusted either.

Cashflow is the only real way to invest in real estate, otherwise you’re speculating.  Providing liquidity from a foreclosure auction to a loan-financed buyer is a lower-risk, but it’s still more speculation than investment.

I’m not bullish on Vegas in general, but IR is doing his homework, which helps a lot.

Astute Observation by IrvineRenter
2010-11-05 09:21 AM

A 40% decline in resale value does not impact a cashflow property at all. By definition, a cashflow property is one that you hold for its cashflow. Changes in resale value have no impact.

If rents were to decline, then the cashflow would decline and there would be real problems. Rents are not going to decline 40% unless Las Vegas becomes Detroit. Even then, I don’t see how rents can decline 40% because even people making minimum wage or on Section 8 assistance can pay more than that.

Astute Observation by Planet Reality
2010-11-05 09:57 AM

I think what you are not understanding is that total cash flow can easily become negative in the extreme scenario where values dropped 40% more.

In Beach Renters scenario, the In an Out Burge doesn’t even exist any more, Las Vegas unemployment has increased to 20% with under employment increasig to 30-40%.

Further more in this scenario population has decreased by 5-10%.

Your mistake is thinking total cash flow is relatively static as prices drop another 40%.  What happens when 10-20% of your renters are not paying rent and rents have dropped.  What happens when you are doing 20% more work and cash flow neutral?  What happens when your investors get uncomfortable.  They have put a lot of trust in you.

Astute Observation by winstongator
2010-11-05 11:16 AM

While you might not see rents decline 40%, if vacancies rise enough, then you might have a unit that is vacant or tenant-not-paying 40% of the time.

The biggest problem with Detroit is their vacant properties.  If you’re more careful about the price you get into a property at, you’re less sensitive to resale price changes.

Astute Observation by winstongator
Astute Observation by BeachRenter
2010-11-05 01:26 PM

Look, I don’t think that Las Vegas prices are headed 40% lower, 20%...maybe.  That statement just seemed a little cavalier in what are almost always very well thought out and presented posts.  If someone else had written that IR would certainly have examined closer. Planet has a good point - It is not a zero sum event, further price reductions ripple through all segments of the economy.

It is a somewhat of a stretch to compare LV with Detroit.  LV has global tourism as an asset, Detroit has???????  Even if the auto companies come back, they are so outsourced it will have little effect on Michigan’s economy.

Making money by arbitraging the spread between buying at forclosure and selling at retail seems to be a pretty good way to put cash to work right now.  Your other options currently are to run with the bond market (pretty played out) the stock market, or deal with the ridiculous t-bill rates.  It is the long, or short, term landlording that make me a little hesitant.

Astute Observation by lisa
2010-11-05 09:16 AM

Breaking news - Nov 05 2010, the Chosen One and Hellicopter at oval office:

The One: You promise me re-elected at 2012 when I re-nominated you, but ever since bailed out my ratings keep dropping.
Ben: I outlined a four year campaign plan two years ago, now just heating up.
The One: But economic goes nowhere since then.
Ben: In order aggregated monetary policy affect mutual signified efficaciously we need to bring down the economic deeper so we can have more stimulus
The One: But does it means more debt to next generation
Ben: People perceive revalue dollar will erase debt, and … remember 2012.
The One: But I just lost the midterm
Ben:  Now you know where to point your finger
The One: But hurry, what if my rating lower than un-employment rate.
Ben: if QE2 is not enough, QE3 and QE4 … Fed is not part of federal government.
The One: I got it. I will re- nominated you another 4 years. 

**************************************************
Ben: Hi Alan, this is for us, I cover your dumb A$$ for free, and I will get my 20 years too.

Astute Observation by bltserv
2010-11-05 09:21 AM

There is no risk in Real Estate !?!.
Especially if your looking for investors.

Astute Observation by IrvineRenter
2010-11-05 09:25 AM

Why do you feel the need to come here, put words in my mouth, then cast aspersions on my motivations based on the false words you put in my mouth?

Astute Observation by irvineshadow
2010-11-05 10:45 AM

the state of the world, look at obama’s 2 billion dollar india trip :/

Astute Observation by Geotpf
2010-11-05 11:03 AM

What 2 billion dollar Indian trip?  That figure was obviously bullshit, even before the White House confirmed it was bullshit.

Astute Observation by BD
2010-11-05 05:14 PM

I agree with IR.  none of us have a crystal ball.  It’s all about your impression of the current market and statistics and your belief what will happen next - hopefully within the context of the macro and micro environments that we live, work and invest in. 

It’s funny really, casinos make their living in statistics.  That said, IR is far more likely to make a killing in LV as loose ANY amount of money.  Do you all think that housing is going to the moon in Irvine but, will go to zero in LV in prices or rents? 

This is foolish thinking if you ask me.  The reality is that LV bottomed years earlier than OC and we will see better price appreciation in LV than we will see in OC any time soon - like a decade or more. 

The idea that a person working at in and out burger can afford a house in LV is beautiful!  Rising rents and rising home prices - IR = winner. 

In OC we have the exact opposite.  Properties that cost 5 times as much and people that make 2X what people in LV make. 

We are in the next phase of “adjustments in price” and equilibration. 

Do you realize you can live in LV and fly every day to the OC to work and STILL make money? 

Fools, all of us that don’t realize what is going on…

Irvine is unique in the fact that we have the best schools and people are willing to pay huge premiums to be here for that purpose.  But, Everything that Irvine may gain is a loss to other local communities. 

OC and the most expensive ‘costal properties’ will loose the most going forward. 

I’m guessing 20-50 percent. 

Vote with your dollars!  Buy now or be priced our forever!  I would rather live in MV and spend 10K a year for a private school than pay an extra 300K to live in Irvine.  Which is where i live now….

My .02

BD

Astute Observation by AbroadThankGod
2010-11-05 02:11 PM

“Especially if your looking for investors.”

At least learn you’re grammar before you start having at people on this board.

Astute Observation by bltserv
2010-11-05 02:29 PM

Thank you Grammer Police. You`re right.

Nobody is going after anybody. But a little Devils Advocate is healthy. I think IR was wrong to bring up his “deals” before they are closed. Just not kosher to count your winnings before the horse is across the finish line. Or in this case.
Escrow closed and cash flow in hand. Its gambling in in purest sense. Not Arbitrage. Arbitrage if done properly has zero risk. Once upon a time this board was to inform loacal people about the risks of real estate in Irvine. Now its a platform for speculative investment in the very same business that IR was so bearish about back in 2006 when I joined this board.

Astute Observation by AbroadThankGod
2010-11-05 05:43 PM

Now, your just making it to easy. Maybe you should get you’re own website.

Astute Observation by Fossbeck
2010-11-06 07:18 AM

Wow. And just btw Grammar-Policeman AbroadThankGod, that ought to be “Now, YOU’RE just making it TOO easy.” and “Maybe you should get YOUR own website.” lol

Astute Observation by AbroadThankGod
2010-11-08 12:58 AM

I think your missing the point in both of my comments above…

Astute Observation by BD
2010-11-05 09:33 AM

My worry with all of this ‘money printing’ and intervention that we get the exact opposite of what the Fed is trying to do… that is, we get huge commodity inflation - gas, food, energy and stagnant wages.  This means more and more money being spent just to live and even harder to stretch for big housing debt payments. 

I doubt these Fed actions do anything productive and are more likely to hurt people and housing. 

My .02

BD

Astute Observation by lee in irvine
2010-11-05 09:54 AM

“The Fed is creating consumers, not producers” ~ Peter Schiff

I think it’s clear the Keynesians have it wrong!  The only answer is to downsize the scope of the govt/FED, get them out of the equity markets, out of the real estate market, out of our pockets.

Take this morale hazard out of the markets!

Astute Observation by Tony
2010-11-05 01:54 PM

IR wrote:
“This is also theft from savers. The free market would place a value on stored financial reserves, but the Federal Reserve usurps the free market and diverts the return on savings away from savers to the member banks. The inflation that comes at the end of the cycle is a second form of theft from savers we will see when interest rates go back up.”
——————————————

II completely identify with this being a saver who saved money for at least 20% down payment but did not buy due to job insecurity (only to be laid off as feared), and my full-fledged down payment is “earning” me about $20 per month. When inflation occurs, I will eat more shit.

Even Bill Gross the bond guru said printing money and Fed buying debt (thus creating artificial demand for bonds at ridiculously high prices (i.e. low interest rates) will kill the bond market because rates will have nowhere to go but up, and eventually driving bond prices down.

Astute Observation by awgee
2010-11-06 06:03 AM

IR - Aren’t you glad there are so many experts here who can point out your mistakes?

Commenting is not available in this channel entry.

<< Back to main