Is that a tile counter too? I thought those went out in the 70’s - maybe they got the “retro” package? Maybe that is why there is only the one poor picture of the kitchen. That, and the missing appliances.

I also love the trap door on the bar.  Was this to store booze, to offer access to the dishwasher plumbing, or to give a good home for the resident Internet troll?

This house was built in 1986 which was about the peak of the late 80s’ bubble. It was then resold in 1991 which is similarly to the current decline in terms of relative timing. The 1991 price of $288k therefore provides a good reference point.

3% compounded from 1991 it is worth $476K. 4% will make it $560k, and 2% $403k.

250K - final offer.  Take it or leave it.

You say the average irvinite makes about $86k.

An average Irvinite ought to be able to afford this very average house.  So it should come down by about a third.  Somewhere in the $380ks seems reasonable for you guys, tho I still can’t get over the prices there.

The latest median income figure is 108K

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2008/snapshots/PL0636770.html

I would like to know their data source and methodology. The US Census Bureau does not say we make that much money. The Sperlings report talks about “Family” income whereas the Census Bureau measures “Household” income.

http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/blog/comments/irvine-income-data/

Nice try.  That’s pretty funny. 

If you go to this website (http://www.ziprealty.com/neighborhood/t-99/Irvine.html), the “latest” figure is “124,151”.

If you go to this website (http://www.rentspeed.com/apartments-for-rent/CA_Irvine_California.aspx), the “latest” figure is “71,513”.

We are in the middle of a recession and you want to believe that half the people of Irvine got a 20K pay raise in the last 3 years?

I would urge you to be a little more skeptical when the source of the information is not disclosed and cannot be verified. 

They could have looked at incomes by zip code and cherry picked the highest one for the purpose of sensationalism.  They could have “adjusted” the value for various reasons.  Just go to this website (http://realestate.aol.com/Irvine-CA-neighborhood) so see how easy that would be.

According to the Irvine, CA government website, the median family income is 85,624.

http://www.ci.irvine.ca.us/about/demographics.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irvine,_California
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/local-jobs/city/l-Irvine,+CA

The kitchen picture is the worst of them. It’s not that bad of a place, architecturally. And I can even find things to like about the kitchen, the sink on the bar area, means you can talk to people while doing dishes not face a wall, the wall shelf covering the cabinets means that wierd space above the cabinets can be used for display without the walls between the cabinets leaving uneven surfaces to work around.

This would be a decent house, small in sq feet but large in feeling, if it were at a decent price. Take comfort that at least the housing stock itself isn’t inherently depressing out there. (as opposed to the 1940’s post-war brick boxes we have in suburbs of D.C.)

I always wanted to come home to a dead, brown lawn.

the back’s just dirt.

A blank slate one might say (if one were a realtor).

So much for the FHA bailout doing anything.
Another reason prices will drop further. Great post by Mr.Mortgage:

http://mrmortgage.ml-implode.com/2008/08/14/second-mortgages-undermining-new-fha-bailout-law/

How about that nice oil splotch on the driveway?

They went and smeared lipstick all over the pig’s inside, but didn’t bother to do anything about the exterior.

I suppose they figure the tile on the floor and a fresh coat of paint is enough to trick the average knife catch fool.

What is an “Internet troll”?

Good question.

I believe that in the classical context it refers to an individual who would log on to a message board and post a bunch of ridiculous assertions and mumbo jumbo in an attempt to inflame and insult the members of the board rather than engage in an honest debate.

In the more modern context, it appears to be used much more liberally.  I have even seen individuals refer to others as “trolls” because the offenders had a different opinion on the subject.

“No Mello Roos”?

WTF does this mean?

$366 for a 1538 sq ft house? This has all the markings of a flip…gussied up, spit polish. They might as well put the words “greater fool” in flashing letters. I’ll pass.

Moving closer toward 20% downpayments for all:

“...Large mortgage insurers insist that they are adequately capitalized, although their losses have grown to $2.6 billion so far this year and they have paid more than $6 billion to cover claims on foreclosed homes. The industry is tightening its standards to stem its losses, meaning that buyers might need to have a larger down payment—up to 10 percent—and higher credit score as well as pay a steeper mortgage premium. The Federal Housing Administration could benefit if private mortgage insurers collapse, as the government entity requires only as little as 3 percent down, or the market could return to a 20-percent down payment standard. There are also concerns whether Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will continue to buy their loans, as several insurers have been downgraded by credit-ratings agencies and have fallen out of compliance with the mortgage finance giants’ requirements for doing business with them…” http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/13/AR2008081303539.html?hpid=topnews

I don’t know Liz.  At $380,000 with 15% down, they just barely scrap by the 28%  front end DTI and that’s using the $108K Family income data.

So for the average Irvinite Family to buy this property, they need $57,000 down + closing costs.  Enough leftover money to do the minor fixing a light outstanding debt load.  Not to mention the light debt load with credit cards, cars and student loans.

For a more modest household to buy this place, the $86K median, with a FHA 97% loan, drops in at a solid 3.1X income. Or $266K before they tap the front end DTI. That also assumes they have a light debt load with cars, student loans, credit cards.

If the family uses the FHA loan, the price capability drops to $340,000.  Assuming not extra PMI charges.  If PMI runs $100/month, the purchase price falls to 3X income…

So folks, should an average Irvinite family be able to aspire to this place?

One Lulz point awarded to Kirk.

Well cool, the average Irvine Family can afford this then up to $400,000 in price.  Provided, they have the $80,000 + closing costs + reserves to buy it.  That’s about $100,000 liquid, or move up…

It this the kind of place that’s a move up needing $100,000 in built up equity?

There are quite a few IndyMac REOs that have hit the LA market recently.
Much more to come now that they’ve thrown in the towel on trying to workout short sales.

hey doofus….it means that there is no extra tax that most Irvine households have to pay. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mello-Roos

No, this place is a good starter house that a young couple should be able to buy.  Saving $100K after 5 years of working isn’t hard if both are making around the median income.

i find it depressing that none of these houses have any “green” components at all, nor do the realtors emphasize such upgrades.  energy efficiencies, solar panels (oh wait sorry irvine only has 350 days a year of sun), solar thermal or geothermal and so on.  none of them.  not a one.

and worse are the fancy houses, 5000 plus sq ft houses with “exotic hardwoods” (wonder which rainforest we chopped down so your bedroom could have a ‘warm feel’ or whatever) and everywhere GREEN F-ING LAWNS, as if water is just easy to come by and eternal.

i do appreciate that OC is drinking its own poo and pee—seriously it is really amazing.  but it is also because there simply is no other choice.  poking around on this board it would be nice to see people caring about anything other than short term property values, as opposed to long term human values, but it is still OC—i ask too much.

Im sure when your not preaching for mother earth you are taking care of orphans and widows while handing out meals at the local soup line.

You have no idea what other people do with their money or their free time. If you want to hear people talk about “green” issues then go to a “green” blog.

Excellent question. I don’t make as much as the income requirement stated above and I wouldn’t touch this sh*th*l* with a 10 foot pole.

This is a blog concerned with housing values in Irvine. It doesn’t mean that those of us posting on it have no other interests in houses other than their market value. We just mostly contain our discussions to issues relating to the housing bubble. I, for example, will be installing solar panels and putting up shade trees to the west when I buy a house.

Also, if it is, indeed, the OC of which you ask too much, then might I inquire why you ask it? Is it simply to annoy? Quite honestly, the internet has enough people yelling at each other over conflicting values.

As for a meaty part of your post, I think that realtors don’t emphasize green components because the houses don’t have them, their skills leave a lot to be desired, and it’s the kind of message in the posting that might annoy some (and hence, deter a potential sale). However, individual realtors do, in fact, highlight such things when showing a place to people who care about such issues. A good salesman doesn’t sell the same product to different people in the same way.

I used to work in Irvine.  I now live in Phoenix, and I have to say I like Phoenix’s prices much more than Irvine’s.  A house like this would be priced around $185K, especially as most 1500 sq.ft. houses here are on at least a 7,000 to 10,000 sq. ft. lot.  A 5,000 sq. ft. lot is a postage stamp.

And the house doesn’t look that great either.  The garage takes up the bulk of the curb appeal, the yard is a turn-off, and the siding looks like it’s ready to fall off.  It could just be the photo quality, but it’s something that, if a realtor showed it to me, would have me standing on the gas and driving off to the next prospect.

i’m in LA, and the criticism is just as apt here.  the truth is that this blog is amazing but it mostly a combo of schadenfreude and i-didn’t-do-it stuff while (reasonably) bashing realtors.  i have no issue with any of that.  i do have an issue with a system whose emphasis is on short term mememe with no connection to whatever else is happening in the world.  any drive through mission viejo with its acres of un-solared roofs in the midst of the greatest sun weather in the world drives this home.

i’m redoing a house right now all green (solar, grey water, certified wood, native succulents and food growing) in LA and of course i get no help from the city to do so.  so thus the frustration.  the interesting question is will this give my house, should i flip it, a competitive advantage?  and if so, how much per sq ft?

we shall see.

Awesome reply.  I wonder how many people on this blog will get it.  Did you hear it on TWiT or that terrible article on the New York Times?

THIS HOUSE IS A+ VALUE!  You renters are just bitter that this type of value is present in the market today, yet you have not saved up enough to take advantage of what is the perfect buyers’ market. 

Only a fool would sit this market out.

Jun 25, 2008     $553,355

and 562,250 now.  WTF?

For people outside of CA, not many know the difference between Mello Roos and Malomars.  No need to call him a “doofus”.  Call him “google challenged”.

Lipstick on a pig.  And not even a full application.  The yard = horrible.  The kitchen = horrible.  Who in their right mind would pay more than 1/2 a million dollars for this P.O.S.??  It will NEVER sell for that price.  To the chump how paid $700k, WTF?

I think it’s reasonable to ask questions about why the houses lack green attributes.  It’s just as reasonable as asking why they are ugly, have small lots, or have not been redone since 1977. 

Realtors in general aren’t technical people.  They also seem to believe that saying something precise will turn people off, or might somehow invite liability if they don’t describe it right.  I’ve noticed how rare it is to even see “has 8 palm trees”, “comes with 25 cu ft built in fridge” etc. 

If you are a green advocate, you might try to get the MLS services to include information on energy efficient appliances, solar, or low water lawns.  If prompted, more realtors might include the info.

I think Doofus refers to himself as “Doofus”.

“i’m redoing a house right now all green (solar, grey water, certified wood, native succulents and food growing) in LA and of course i get no help from the city to do so.  so thus the frustration.  the interesting question is will this give my house, should i flip it, a competitive advantage?  and if so, how much per sq ft? “

Um, why should anybody help you? If it’s good, it should pay for itself.

That’s quite an assumption, RKP.

I suppose those family units where both do not earn the median or better ought to go find a cardboard box to settle down in and quit their complaining.

The prices are a lot better.  But then again, we have to deal with tripping over tumble weeds and cow skulls.

People pay premiums to not have to deal with that kind of sub-standard living.

“To the chump how paid $700k, WTF? “

Well, technically the chump rented it from the bank for a year as they didn’t use a cent of their own money to buy it, saw that prices were dropping and headed for the hills.

Get lost, Boomer.

Most of the people who post here, me among them, want to buy a house to live in.  We aren’t interested in making a political statement, participating in the latest trend (a “green” house) or saving the planet.

I want housing prices to come down because I have two young children and until recently was raising them in a 1 bedroom apartment.  I don’t have the luxury of worrying about things like solar power and “native succulents” (whatever those are).  Instead, I am trying to provide a decent home for my children.  I would like to raise them in a safe community with good schools.  That’s far more important to me than using “certified wood” in my latest flip. 

But thanks to this housing bubble, houses in safe communities with decent schools are beyond my reach.  I can’t afford to pay $1mm for a 1,200 sq ft tract house in a neighborhood with good schools.  For this reason, I could not possibly care less about the percentage of Mission Viejo residents who use solar power.  I am too busy trying to keep my kids out of the ghetto. 

And yet, you have the audacity to complain that “course i get no help from the city” with your latest speculative real estate investment?  In other words, you complain that none of my tax dollars (I live in LA) are being used to defray your costs?  Someone please give me a handkerchief!  I can barely contain my tears!

Get lost, Boomer.  Go back to your second wife (you ARE divorced, aren’t you?) and ask her for consolation.  Take your smug, self-righteous blather somewhere else.

Jedi Mind Trick.

Attempting to create a perception that the market is turning and prices are going back up to pull another victim off of the fence who fears becoming priced out.

You forgot to mention “Sarcasm off”

I like this house, it needs some work but is elderly & handicap friendly.  Bedrooms and bathrooms downstairs, though I haven’t seen pictures of the bathrooms yet.  If necessary you could always build an additional bathroom into the yard I guess.  2 car garage with full drive way and no weird steps/stairs going up to the front door.

The price is a bit high though.  At around low 400k’s I’d consider buying, probably have to sink another 20k-30k into fixing it up.

We on this board are concerned over “Green”, the kind that means $$$$. We want cheaper housing, and when so called “Green” Technology bubble bursts, we will get that incorporated in our homes as well.  My electricity bill on a 1400 SF home is $50/month at annual average. Solar costs in excess of $20,000. Go do the math, it will take 30 years to pay off the cost of solar, if price of electricity doubles in next dacade which it will, still it will take 15 years to pay off. By that time the solar system would be broken and require replacement.  Talk about Green

Did someone contact the realtor?

Not sure how I missed that.  I guess I just didn’t expect someone to refere to himself that way.

They are trying to recover the lost payments during the foreclosure period and cover various fees and costs. It is all part of their loss mitigation procedures.

+3 lulz

Re: Solar panels… most of the Irvine villages are under atleast 1 HOA.  Some of the HOAs are pretty stringent about what is permissible on the outside of the house.  Though they can’t outright ban solar—they can make it more challenging.  My neighbor recently installed panels and the HOA found that they were laid in a different pattern than was shown on his HOA application.  It was the identical sq footage he had listed—just a different pattern.  He had to redo it to match the orig. diagram.

I think this is a little over-the-top, and wonder about the relative (to irvine, to such an older/unrenovated place, and to future RE trends) values that “Green Technologies” would add into listig prices.

I know a friend who bought at the near-top of the peak and has a fifty grand pool out back. In this east coast market, I think his pool is a wash, literally, and needs to come right off the listing price.

If fuel (and out here, heating oil) prices continue to climb, will green houses be worth more, and how much?

BTW: the original green rant was a bit out of character for this blog, but I don;t think it deserves the animus from the above comments.

It’s amazing how many HOA’s exhist today. you’d think we lived in a Communist country. 

I wonder how many more homes are being foreclosed on, due to Fascist HOA rules? 

I think your mortgage should rank higher in priority than a stupid HOA fee…tax. 

I HATE HOA’s as you can tell.  If I wanted to live in a controlled community I’d move to China.

Boo motherfucking hoo.  I’m just a put-open little boy with 2 kids who can’t afford to live in “Everyman’s Dream: Orange County.”

I’m old enough to remember when Irvine was bean fields.  At the time, it was a much more fascinating and culturally alive place than it is now, full of Asian computer programmers and their equivalent in white wankers (that would be 1:1.3 wanker ratio).  For that reason, I’m happy that I will be quite fucking dead when this shitpile finally comes home to roost and abusive whiners realize they ain’t even gonna have any water to drink much less “gasoline” for their “SUVs” or “food” for their “families.”

Irvine:  La Habra with less Mexicans.  That’s all it is and all it ever will be.  Thank Donald Bren for that.

Joe Schmoe:
You are concerned about the environment- the immediate environment in which your kids grow up. 
Great post.

Thats the great thing about America. You aren’t forced to live in an HOA if you don’t want to. Most people like HOAs because without them you almost always end up with at least 1 as$clown on every block who never cuts their lawn, has a rusted-out RV parked in their front yard and destroys everyone else’s home value.

That’s the scam.  It goes both ways.  There are plenty of people who hate overpowered HOA’s as well. It’s usually the details in the CC&R;‘s that are the make or break-it in a deal. 

I’d rather live next to a great neighbor who paints their house pink before I lived next to an ass-hole who nit picks every single CC&R;.

Yeah, Irvine is much better for Mr. Bren than it is for the working slobs that occupy his profit center. If it was shit on a shingle, Irvinites would remark about the lovely aroma and warm texture. They could have affordable, low operating cost green structures—but what they have instead are toxic materials and debt prisons. And they overpaid for them. I guess it takes an Irvine education to do that.

Yeah, I would put my family in a toxic plywood radon trap in Irvine over a cheaper-to-build, green, sustainable house anyday. As long as Mr. Bren gets his profit, I am doing my job—says Joe.

What a pathetic life. “Too busy keeping my kids out of the ghetto.” Well, you live in a ghetto—but you just don’t even know it. I know plenty of people, myself included, who were raised in the rough part of the city, and we do just fine. The first thing that street-smarts tell you is how to spot a phoney.

It would scare me to death if my kids could not hail a cab in New York, or take the bus in Chicago. What kind of life do you want for your kids?

“I am too busy trying to keep my kids out of the ghetto.”

Translation—I am a racist, and I will pay any money, because racists are stupid—it is true.

Great Post and Awesome song. Thanks IR

Nice commentary, LC and Buckthrust. Appreciate the language. If the sterile, wanker, racist society you percieve Irvine to be keeps people like you two away, then clearly Irvine is the right place for me to buy a home.

Buckthrust, you should talk to LC—- he knows of an often speaks glowingly about a secret place not far from here that is “not that much different than Irvine” but much cheaper.  This mystical, promised land is called ‘Corona’. A couple of sophisticates like yourselves would be very happy there.

roger on that !

That Tanta post really got me riled.

I am self-employed with an 800+ Fico and I didn’t drink the kool-aid. At 40 years I’m looking forward to finally getting a house for my family. Now I won’t have any borrowing options because of all the other fools?

I admit I don’t know much about lending. Can you use your tax filings to document your income?

Yes, tax returns count. They like copies of the past 2 tax returns. It’s the prefered method even. Basically if you’re only going to buying your house (paying off your mortgage) with the portion of your income you’re willing to report to Uncle Sam and pay taxes on, they’ll be shit-tickled to death. That’s not Alt-A.

No and low doc programs were started for someone in your circumstances. Unfortunately, they were turned in to the “liar loan” system that inflated house prices in Irvine for a while. There may be a period of time where it is more difficult to find a loan for the self employed, but as was pointed out above, if you can provide real documentation of real income, someone will give you a loan.

Thank you both!

IR- I was never happy about the house scalpers (like ticket scalpers,) and your straight-forward honest posts and analyses are one the best things that ever happened to me!

LOL! I wondered as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Wow, that guy likes TO YELL almost as much as the realtors.  Very distracting.