Looks like an exodus on Night Bloom with #33, 38, and 39 also up for sale. It wouldn’t surprise me if some of these are “walk-aways” too. There’s still gallons of Kool Aid at $372 sq-ft.

It is truly decadently appointed, yet tastefully so, making it hard for a plebe like myself to properly evaluate its price. Given that my grandmother’s 2 bedroom condo in the mountains above Silicon Valley sold two years ago for a cool million (and it wasn’t in any way luxurious, just spacious), I can see why someone thought this was reasonable at 3/4 of a million. Regardless of the small square footage and the lack of a real third bedroom, I don’t this place will fall to under $475 even at the bottom. Not unless there’s something else wrong with it’s location or fees.

That was 2 years ago Cara.  What would your grandmather’s condo sell for today?

Did you mean no less than $475k at the bottom?

Think again. This place likely rents $2200. GRM 160 makes it $352k.

Your grandmother sold at perfect time. Hopefully she rented afterwards.

If so, she made out like a bandit who got away.

Does the fact that the listing states a desired closing date for escrow that has already passed and hasn’t been updated by the RE agent mean the agent has given up on this property too?

If someone can present a convincing argument why 10% down in the comments, I would love to hear it

Um, ok, I’ll take a whack at it… 20% down? That’s awfully conservative. If a lender is determined to have as few foreclosures as possible, sure, require 20% down. But that also means turning away an awful lot of mortgage business from people who can only afford to put 10% to 19% down. I would think that lenders are willing to take on the increased marginal risk from borrowers in that range.

Requiring 10% down would be a dramatic improvement over the days of nothing down. Besides, old habits from the bubble days will die hard. Are there any figures to be had - from pre-bubble days, perhaps - which show default rates at various down payment percentages?

they did list the fees at the Redfin link - $141.

She died. My parents sold the house, and after the reverse mortgage that had been paying for her 12 hour/day in home care, they had $300k which allowed them to buy at exactly the wrong time on Cape Cod MA (for ~$600k), so when Mom sells that place to downsize to something more reasonable for just her, she’ll probably only be able to keep $150k of it, but hopefully where she’ll be buying will also have gone down and she’ll be fine.

Oddly zilow still has her complex at 1.1, despite her 1.0 sale. (although it did need some repairs…) Maybe Silicon Valley is a bit behind Irvine in the housing curve.

I’d like to point out the price erosion that is going on.  Here is a link to the College Park neighborhood.  Please scroll down to the bottom and on the left you’ll see the current listings for comps on this particular property and on the right column, you’ll see what prices have been paid, most recently.  CLEARLY, there is a disconnect when you have a property like Yucca ( 2,621 sq. ft, sold for $610k) selling well below ALL of the current properties listed as for sale now.  Please note that the square footage of ALL current properties are BELOW the Yucca SQ.FT.

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Irvine/14881-Athel-Ave-92606/home/4675234

$699k and $690k for the Blackthorn properties are out of line:  They back directly up to the train tracks and those trains are loud - day and night.  Blackthorn has always sold at a discount in CP in comparison to other homes that are at greater distance from the tracks.

The Athel property shows no interior photos and the photo of the pool was a bad idea - it shows neglect and future maintenance problems.  The residents were in the process of upgrading the “curb appeal” with the brickwork, the driveway etc..  However, the front patio is in some stage of “upgrade”, in that it is bare dirt - the slab has been removed. 

The pine property was upgraded in the kitchen area, in particular.  But apparently they ran out of steam/cashflow in that they don’t even have curtains in their main living space - just a curtain bar.  No pix of the bathrooms or Master Bed, so the upgrading seems to be centered around the kitchen area.  Their upgraded landscape doesnt show well- dead plant climbing the front of the home and the grass in the back is dying off.  A couple more super hot weather days will not be kind to whatever “upgrades” have been put in.  They’ve been having open houses a couple of times a week and there seems to be a number of people who have visited the property.  This street seems to be popular with the Feng Shui crowd.

The important thing here is the fact that the current house prices listed are absolutely NOT IN LINE with the reality of the REAL selling prices that have been occuring.  Potential knife catchers, beware!

thanks,r€nato.  Very astute observation on your part! 

That is probably the most convincing argument that can be made. I would note that lenders were under the same competitive pressures during the 40 years that 20% down was the standard. At the time they reasoned that getting more business by writing bad loans was not a good idea. When they stopped holding most of their loans in the 1970s, they became much less concerned about making bad loans. IMO, it is really going to come down to what the GSEs are willing to insure, and their willingness is going to depend completely upon the default rates they see. I don’t have Freddie Mac’s detailed data on default rates at various CLTV levels, but as you might imagine, the lower the downpayment, the higher the default rates.

I imagine this will become very apparent when they go to get financing. Lenders are no longer ignoring low comps.

BTW, I particularly enjoyed today’s featured song. Check it out.

Hard to say. Her complex was kinda small, and about 6 sold within a few months of her for around 1.1 million. The current two sellers there have wish prices of 1.15 and 1.19 but it’s been a year since the most recent sale in the complex. Nearby comps from Redfin were sold at $900k-$950k.

But yes, this is not comparable to Irvine, my point was more, if some sortof similar areas with standard tract condos are selling for 1 million, I can see why this buyer back in ‘06 thought 3/4 was appropriate (unless they did all these new fixings themselves)

Wow.

600 k on the Cape.

What were they thinking?

Hello, IR, thanks to some of your readers’ input, I am renting instead of buying. Now,I have been contemplating if I should ‘rush’ to buy before the end of the year because of the temporary increase of conforming loan limit. Or should I wait? I would be looking for a 2,500 sq ft. sfr. Thanks in advance for all suggestions.

“...it is really going to come down to what the GSEs are willing to insure…”

And the GSEs are moving in the opposite direction of 20% down requirements.  Just last week they announced there wouldn’t be increased downpayment requirements in “high risk” areas.

The likelihood of the conforming loan limit coming back down in 2009 is slim to none.

“...We now have some statistical proof this phenomenon is occurring…”

Where’s the statistical proof?  It was a comment presented with no stats.  How many underwater defaults are Fannie/Freddie seeing from borrowers in non-exotic loans with standard DTIs?  That’s what I’m waiting to see.  In fact, the media is starting to report that all of the “voluntary walkaway” reports are not supported by any statistics.

I’m not saying it isn’t happening, or won’t, I just want some stats!

IR - what type of loan did the owner take on this property.  You mentioned neg am but it wasn’t clear if this owner took that.

I get confused by these type of owners.  Why put any skin in the game if you are speculating?  I have friends who put 20% down on a 700k house and their neighbors are now selling for 550k for same floorplan.  Sure they are bummed but they can’t imagine walking away as they still would need a place to live and they can afford their monthly on a fixed 30.

Not sure exactly. Mostly they didn’t want to wait another year before buying their retirement home. But with $1000 carrying costs on the place in Cupertino, and only a $300k mortgage on the new place it didn’t look so bad. Perhaps they were worried about getting hit with capital gains if they didn’t put it back into another property?

For them it was the right decision, mostly because they can easily afford the mortgage. And most importantly we had the first all together in one place Thanksgiving this past fall, before Dad died. That’s easily worth $100k of bubble gains. Whether Mom will now feel stuck in this too huge house is another matter.  With the $300k cushion, at least she’s unlikely to get underwater on the new place, which could easily have happened with the reverse mortgage in Cupertino had things played out differently.

as you might imagine, the lower the downpayment, the higher the default rates.

indeed I would imagine that… but is it a linear relationship or is there perhaps a significant drop in foreclosure rate once one hits, say, 15% down? That’s what I am thinking… of course the flip side of that is that 20% down is not quite as onerous when property values are reasonable and not inflated.

Do lenders bump the interest rate upwards for lower down payment %ages? IAN a real estate professional but I have never heard of that. If I were a lender with a cautious approach to the market, I might consider charging a quarter-point or eighth-point less for those willing to put 20%+ down, to reflect the decreased risk.

I don’t believe people like your friends are walking away.  Some of these homeowners may walk away if/when the price declines are dramatic (30%+), but they need to research this “rational” decision.  Fannie has already stated that they will not purchase loans with borrowers who have foreclosures within 5 years.

Re: the first graph. 

I would like to know the legend of the 3 lines in the first graph. 

Thanks.

That was the headline for the bulls. What they really did was increase the downpayment requirements for everyone else. Two of the lenders who frequent our forum have noted that the new guidelines going into effect on June 1 have tightened credit significantly and has eliminated about 1/4 of our already dwindling borrower/buyer pool.

Consider what will happen if the temporary conforming limit is not raised. Will you be priced-out? Or will prices have to fall until buyers like yourself can afford to buy? I think the answer is obvious: being priced out is a fallacy, prices will fall. Also, the raising the conforming limit is going to have little or no effect on prices. It will permit the lenders to offload some of these loans in the secondary market, but the interest rates being charged are higher than for regular conforming, and the DTI requirements are much tighter. In other words, these loans are being made available to people who can really afford them, but the people making $100K who took out $800K loans are still DOA.

For me, the disconnect between what the homes have actually sold for, versus what people are asking for now, confirms that the hype that this spring would be the “recovery” is at work.

Realtors have the comps for these properties.  Starting some $80k over the last sale of the BIGGEST HOME NOT ON THE RAILROAD TRACKS is ridiculous.

The Athel property is a REO, too.

I certainly have seen lenders who charge more fees for lower down payments.  One lender I’m considering adds a half point fee at 75%, 80%, and 90% LTV.

Perhaps Freddie Mac will put out a report with all of their statistics for the whole world to see. I have a hard time imagining they would simply make something like that up during their conference call. It is not a positive idea they would want to puff up.

“if they find themselves quickly underwater - you know we’re even seeing it when we try to modify and renegotiate those loans - they are walking away.”

This is voluntary walkaway. Freddie Mac would not be contacting these people to restructure their loans if they were not already pre-screened as being qualified. The fact that these people who could afford to continue making their payments with a restructured loan are choosing not to do so is very telling. If this information were coming from a small mortgage lender or an individual broker, I might ignore it as anecdotal, but I doubt one of the GSEs would be saying this unless it was a statistically significant phenomenon.

“Freddie Mac: No, it is different. The rate of increase in defaults in that part of the population is much steeper. For those borrowers that bought a home based on rapid house price appreciation as a way to grow wealth,  if they find themselves quickly underwater “

Not to split hairs, but that statement is very different than ‘For borrowers that find themselves underwater.’  To me, it specifically is talking about Speculators, not overextended home buyers that actually bought it to live in.  Granted, in the last two, three years, I don’t know if the speculators were 20% or 80% of the market, I suspect 80%.

Also, it could be Conference Call talk too and really mean they see it across the board but make it sound like it’s a narrower band.

Yes, the owner took out an Option ARM with a 1% payment rate.

I get confused by these owners as well. I suspect they put money into the transaction to get better financing terms. They probably did not think it possible that real estate prices could decline, so they did not think their money was at risk.

As for your friends, even if they are only slightly underwater, their is still “option” value in their mortgage. Prices do not have to move up very much before they are “in the money” again. The further “out of the money” a homeowner is, the less option value they have. As your friends fall further underwater, they will likely grow more despondent and think more seriously about walking away. As long as their payments are manageable, they will likely stay put.

The light gray line represents the market price with its associated bubbles due to irrational exuberance. The steady line beneath represents the fundamental value of rental parity to which prices fall after each bubble deflates. The other line represents the equity curve of today’s neg am borrower.

That’s what I want to hear from Fannie/Freddie: “We screened our delinquent portfolio for buyers who could reasonably afford their loans based on the fully-indexed rate which represent x% of the delinquent portfolio and x% of these homeowners continue to be delinquent and foreclosure is expected.”

Until I hear that, I don’t really know what they’re talking about.  Maybe their motivation is to appease the public and Congress by trying to illustrate how proactive they’re being and that buyers just don’t want to work things out. i.e. “It’s not our fault, it’s the buyers’ fault, it’s the housing market’s fault, it’s the economy’s fault, etc.”

Mayten must not have had that out-of-line pricing since it got into escrow this weekend with a $699K list.

You failed to mention what that downpayment is…  It’s not 20%.  It’s as low as 3%.

How do you define a walk away?  To my thinking, it’s like jingle mail.  Here though, it’s a short sale and the owner wants to avoid the foreclosure, if possible, by selling short.  To me, that sounds more like a reset problem than a true walk away.

My Offer
After giving this property a thorough look, my offer today is $184,000.00. I believe this is what this property is worth.

Renato - well done, you beat me to it! Quick on the draw this AM!

I would only add that I believe lending institutions have had a paradigm shift in risk appetite they’ll tolerate.  I believe things have changed permanently in the mind of the investor in that double digit returns are demanded. IMO, this isn’t for the better. It’s why publicly traded companies engage in risky behavior and lay-off people at the first signs of lower returns. Gone are the days when Joe Schmoe invested in Bob’s BlueChips at a nice steady return of 5-7%. Of course the “geniuses” on WallSt. feed this nonsense and engage in even riskier behavior.

In short, 10% will be the new minimum with 20% preferred. They might even offer incentives to folks with a cool 20 down. Am I betting on it? Nope, I have my 20% sittin’ tight and making me a steady return while I wait to pounce.

One last note ... we now also have brokers and others engaged in the mortgage biz, albeit blessedly fewer than before. These folks have no real skin in the game and will again lead the way to marginal loan practices.  Never underestimate the short memories of the average Joe/Jane.

If someone did an Alt-A, overstated their income, then it would indeed appear they could afford the house on the loan docs, right?  And you’d expect them to get the refi call.  However, they wouldn’t really be able to afford/keep it, would they?  Not exactly voluntary walk away in that case,

I’m a little lazy this AM so I won’t go looking for the article to back this up but ... I remember reading a piece about a year ago or so where a large percentage of the sales at the peak were classified as second homes. (I think the percentage was north of 50%, perhaps as high as 60%, forgive me I just don’t recall the specifics. I just remember being stunned at the stat being that high.)

Clearly it’s anecdotal but we can infer that nearly all those sales were speculation and not Mikey the Millionaire buying a crash pad. Maybe a stretch here but I would venture that we’ll see nearly all those purchases on the market as shorts and REO’s if not already.

Yes, it is as low as 3% for those utilizing a 31% DTI through FHA. That isn’t going to help those who need a 50% DTI to afford a property.

Ouch! That is bearish indeed! 

I believe the equivalent rent is $2200/mo. So a GRM of 160 would put it at $352,000. (Previously posted above too.)

$200K would be a steal indeed.

I understand from someone who lives in the neighborhood that there is a HUD apartment complex nearby.  This makes parking a nightmare, and causes noise issues. 

Quite disappointing, since the properties on Nightbloom are very nicely appointed.  I have been waiting for the prices to come down to Earth, but after finding this out, there is no discount that would cause me to give up my lovely rental.

I would define “walking away” as someone who was capable of making the payments on a mortgage who for whatever reason decides not to. It goes to the heart of the statement made by Freddie Mac that people who were offered loan workouts are not doing so because “They’re finding it not constructive.”

My Offer

After giving this property a thorough look, my offer today is $24,000.00. I believe this is what this property is worth.

Only a dumb knifecatcher would offer over $180k for this dump.

Ipop,
Thanks for the info.  Just looking at the recent comps in the neighborhood, do you think they’ll have any problems with financing the buy?

It would be around 200K in a nice area in Phoenix (where it will be about 106 today) or Tucson (103).  Use the 375K you have left over for regular weekends in La Jolla, Laguna, etc. And don’t tell me about schools, nobody with kids lives in a 2/2.

I say it all the time, so if you’re sick of hearing it just skip this message…but paying more than $500K for a two-bedroom house in Orange County, unless it is on or very very close to the beach, is just outrageous.  It’s just an insult.  There has to be a constitutional amendment against it.

I’ll weigh in…

$2,200/month est. rent seems low to me for such a highly upgraded apartment, I would think you would ask a premium and lease it out to the wealthier riff/raff rather than just taking the going rate based on sq footage.

Also, did you see that they put in the same pic of the bbq/patio three times.  Must be pretty proud of that small patio.

Cara, I’m from Silicon Valley.  Where is this condo complex?  Cupertino prices have just begun inching down this mont.  They were up (over same week last year) even last month.

So I suspect that your parents didn’t sell at the peak after all.  If they had sold in Irvine, they would have.  At least 3/4 of the zip codes up here are down over last year, but the better zips, and Cupertino is one of them, haven’t dropped yet.  But I am pretty sure it’s coming.

True. I was speaking more from my personal experience, not considering any premiums.  I rent in a “luxury apartment” complex in Foothill/Lake Forest and we pay $2200/mo. for just about this exact size place. This one is about 80 sq.ft. larger but same bed/bath mix and we have an attached two car garage. (Swanky no?!) 

Cara—>I don’t this place will fall to under $475 even at the bottom. Not unless there’s something else wrong with it’s location or fees.

try less than 350k at the bottom. I know its hard for people to think if this place falls to 350k people wont take it, but think about it another way, with so much inventory, loans getting harder to get, people will have alot more choices(bigger sfootage). THIS IS NOT A PLACE TO UPGRADE TO, so not many people will have this kind of downpayment and want to piss it down the drain  

this is a place for a young couple with no kids or older couple downgrading. both of which would not over extend (if prices are not going up 15% per year) to get in.  It’s all about psychology.

Irvine Renter -

I find your purchase stats/requirements useful, but a bit misleading.  The income requirement you list is based on the basic DTI ratio you described assuming that 100% of the purchase price is financed, but then a 20% downpayment requirement is also listed.

Using this property as an example, (to me at least) your posts make it seem like a potential buyer must have both a $143,750 income and a $115,000 down payment.  Instead, (using your usual assumptions which I think are good ones) one could either buy this property with a $143,750 income and zero down, or if they put the 20% down you list, then only a $115,000 income would be needed because they would be borrowing less. 

I’m a daily reader, but if you’ve already made this clear (or my math is just wrong), I apologize. 

Thoughts?

...as opposed to Irvine, where it would be 101 today.

Is the term DTI backwards, or do I not understand what it means?  To me, 30% Debt to Income implies that a loan is made for a debt equivalent to 30% of annual income.

I am using the income requirement for total purchase price. The actual loan would be around 3.25 times income, and the downpayment would be about .75 times income. The market bottomed in 1997 around 4 times income with people putting 20% down, so it is a useful guideline.

I would postulate that the source of the downpayment money could have an effect on the default rates.

For instance, if somebody saved up cash for 5 years to come up with a 10% downpayment on a $400,000 house, he probably has a lower default rate than somebody who provides a 20% downpayment that they got from the profit on the sale of their previous home.

The 10% guy has much more value on that money because he really earned it.  He already showed the ability to live on less money than he makes and probably will only buy a house he can afford.

However, the 20% guy is living on “free” money and may already be living outside of his means.

Good luck getting the seller to agree to that price

Isn’t IAC bringing on a lot of similar apartments?

How big do you all estimate the target audience is for $2200 rentals? 

Can you convert them into buyers?  Are those people likely to buy a 2/2, or more likely to want something larger?  Are they likely to be corporate transferees on the career track who don’t really want to buy?  Are they more likely to want to buy closer to the ocean/nightlife if they are younger/single?

This would rent for at least $2,600, probably more like $2,700.  It is configured as either a three bedroom or a two bedroom with a big loft area. That $2,200 you throw around will get you a decent 2 bed IAC apartment, or a crappy 3 bed IAC apartment. This one is a detached condo, the size of a small 3 bedroom house. I’ve been in several of these, and they are far from an IAC apartment.

$400-$450k at the bottom in 2010-11. 

I’ll patiently await your “Irvine is Different” response, MMG.  Keep on wishin for that $300k brother.  (Or is it sister?).

Isn’t this property considered part of Northpark not Northwood? My family and I are new to CA (moved here 3 months ago from MA) We looked at this property a while back but couldn’t quite figure out that neighborhood. We have 2 small children and didn’t see many kids around there. Out of curiousity, can anyone provide any info. on that neighborhood? It seems a little off the beaten path.

BTW my husband and I both love this blog! It has given us great information on housing and a lot of laughs! Keep up the great work!

DTI is based on any debt you have on your credit report along with PITI associated with the property debt you are applying for. If you have positive cash flow on another rental property, that positive cash flow counts as income. DTI is the debt to income ratio of all debt and all income.

Rancho Deep Cliff is the subdivision, it’s up in the mountains below Ridge Winery. Their complex has been selling at the 1 million mark for 3 years straight, so yeah, it wasn’t a pointy peak, but for that subdivision (with $655 HOA and hefty taxes) it was during the flat top period that preceded the inevitable fall, though I am surprised it’s taken this long.

The good thing for us about it falling soon is then Mom won’t feel so bad for taking a hit on the house in Massachusetts.

LC—- Do you think this is the IrvinG, TX Housing Blog? Last week Irvine was “not that different than Corona”, and now it has weather rivaling Phoenix? Try 83 degree forecast high for IrvinE, CA. 76 tomorrow.

Perhaps you were not aware that Irvine is about 8-10 miles from the ocean, as the crow flies.  That body of water tends to have bit of a moderating effect on the weather, FYI.

I think the formula for a house is:

$300 x square footage
minus
absolute value of (temperature extreme minus 75) divided by 100
Times $200,000
minus
summer humidity percentage times $100,000

So DTI is your situation prior to getting a new loan?

“As your friends fall further underwater, they will likely grow more despondent and think more seriously about walking away.”

I don’t see that happening.  Not just for my friends but I don’t think most people who bought on a 30 year fixed with affordable payments are going to walk away.  Where would people walk away to and what would motivate them to if they can afford their payment and the house meets their needs?  Just having buyers remorse is not going to cause them to get up and leave if they aren’t stretching themselves.  They would still need to find a place to rent or buy and would have to go through hassle of moving and ruin their credit scores.  I don’t think people who took 30 year conservative mortgages will ruin their credit scores if they can afford their payments and stay in their houses.

As I said before, my parents and inlaws were both underwater in the mid 90’s and never thought about walking away.  I think we will see walking away by the folks that have a reset mainly.  Majority with a 30 year won’t walk away unless they have to move for job, divorce or such things.

IAC Rents are inflated relative to private party rents.  Considering one can rent a 3/3 in Quail Hill for $2700, I can’t imagine that this place would go for anything near that.

No, DTI is the total debt carrying cost assuming the new loan is funded.

I’ve been underwater on my car since I bought it 18 months ago.  I still need that bad boy to get me to work.

I think you are forgetting about the other option (pardon the pun).  The PUT option.  The lower this thing goes the more moneyness the put.  As prices continue to trend down difference between carrying costs on the existing mortgage less carrying costs on the same unit in the current market (accounting for the additional costs of destroyed credit for seven years), becomes are very compelling argument.  The greater the negative result of this simple equation, the greater to the incentive to exercise the put.

The national vacancy rate (no owner or renter living there), is running at 2.9%.  This is the highest ever recorded in the 55+ year history of this statistic.  So yeah, there were A LOT of speculators buying in the past few years, and many of them are going to walk away from bad investments.

What’s the homeless rate?

I have about the same chance as picflight and he is offering $160k more!!!

Homeless rate went down a lot…they’re squatting in the empty homes!

/sarcasm off.

Though they have little room for error now, a job loss or a medical emergency, anything that can stop their ability to pay their mortgage could force them to sell in a down market and they will need to bring a check to the closing table besides losing their down payment.

And the question is, how long will they be living under this risk? are they aware of that?

nope, chances are they will put 30-50% down.

regds,
still_priced_out_partially_bitter_renter_2011_homebuyer

You will often see DTI ratios quoted with two figures such as the FHA 31/44. The first ratio is applied to the housing payment itself and is referred to as the front-end ratio. The second ratio is the total indebtedness as described above, and it is the back-end ratio.

Your analysis is a good one. I bet if you compared the price curve on a put option as it gets in the money to the increase in defaults as people go underwater per Freddie Macs data (if we had it,) you would probably see a striking similarity. That is why they were commenting on the unusual “steepness” in the default rates.

LC, CK,

FYI, inspired by your weather debate, just to let you know how far “the information at your fingertips” mantra has gone:

Here’s a weather map for Irvine (and other OC cities), where you can see the weather stations measurements updated almost every few seconds:

Irvine Interactive Radar & Weather Stations

Meaning, your annual income is 31% of the home loan amount?

Meaning the ratio of your total monthly housing cost to your monthly household income.

The back-end ratio takes the total of your monthly housing cost + all other recurring monthly debt to your monthly household income.

But here’s a simple check during the summer.  Drive to Laguna Beach, turn around and drive back up Laguna Cyn Road to thru the 131 to Northpark, get off on Irvine Ctr and hang a right towards Portola Spings. Let us know if you car’s thermometer can keep up with the temp change.  How wait, I forgot, those roads are all gridlocked during the summer.

For alternate quick humor, just hang an inland turn off the 405 on Culver and watch your outside temp soar as you head inland thru Irvine.

The homes in Portola need the AC running in January to keep the home comfortable during the day. 

Irvine is a big place. UP is very different than Portola Springs.

That is a risk that should concern anyone underwater, but that wouldn’t result in a “voluntary walk away.”

LOL Rocker—- That’s the coolest thing I’ve seen all day.  The temperature on this thing thing reads 90 for Irvine right now, I pulled weather.com for my zip (92614) and it says 84. Wonder who is right?  Either way—- it’s too hot today.  I like to complain if it gets below 60 or above 80.

Funny how most people accept the immediate depreciation of their new car of 25%+, but your house depreciating 15% will compel you to walk away.

Question to Irvinerenter:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac announced over the weekend that they will do away with larger downpayment requirements in areas throught.  This would mean that a person who has 3-5% for down would be albe to get loan. Again, my question is that if someone goes for a 95% loan, what would be the DTI? If its no more than 31% and assuming 31% is on adjusted gross income taking out all other debt and expenses, it would leave the median buying power of Irvine resident to get approved for a loan no more than $400K, given he makes median income. Again, media is all hyped about this new developments from FNM and FRE, I dont see a turnaround anytime soon. Do you?

NSR—too funny.  Did that just yesterday!  Left Aliso Beach Park at 2:30pm, and noted that it was 80 (per my dashboard).  As we headed up the 133 was calling out temperatures to my wife. It was 89 by the time got to the 73, and 94(!) at the 133/405. And then back down to 89 by the time got home in Westpark. I believe that is what is referred to as microclimates. 

The best climate I could find yesterday was under that 63 degree surf….Oh how I wish I could afford Laguna….*sigh*

Also note these numbers are based on gross income, not the net you get after taxes. If you buy a home utilizing a 44% back-end DTI, you will be spending upwards of 65% of your take-home pay on debt service between your mortgage and other consumer debt.

IR, you should have used Real McCoy’s “Run Away”

The whole announcement has been spun as a bullish loosening of credit, but the lenders in our forum who have actually read the new guidelines (because they have to live with them) say the devil is in the details. In order to qualify for a low downpayment scenario, you have to have stellar credit, a low DTI and cash reserves. The guidelines have been tightened across the board. Masterofdamoney has estimated that 1/3 to 1/4 of our already depleted borrower pool cannot meet the new standards. I anticipate fewer escrows and more deals falling out of escrow after June 1.

The 31% requirement for FHA—which is still the only game in town for getting 3% down loans—is a front-end DTI that applies to the mortgage payment. They have a 44% back-end DTI applying to total indebtedness.

Right now, the GSEs are the only secondary market. The ABS market is basically dead right now. This puts the fate of the market in the hands of the GSEs. As they tighten credit availability, transaction volumes will wither and prices will drop. They will continue to tighten as long as default rates are high, and default rates will be high until prices are affordable and they stop dropping. The downward spiral is in full force.

Brings a whole new meaning to the term Quail Hell

I’d rather pay $450k for 2, 2 and 1/2 in Oak Creek…there’s one listed now with no taker yet.

IHB,

I have respected your analysis and your ability to predict prices based on fundamentals, but you gotta stick to the fundamentals.  The house price as a factor of income is absolutely meaningless!  The house mortgage as a factor of income is meaningful.  You know interest rates set the amount someone can pay for a house and not some quick short-cut that “smart” financial advisers use.  Published financial advisers (see BMIT posts) have proven time and again they cannot understand simple financial principles - so they stick to short-cuts.

By your numbers above - $143,750 yearly salary, this person meets 31% DTI on mortgage when the loan is at 9.04%.  Now seriously, the credit market hasn’t gotten that bad yet.  I still see published rates at ~7% for JUMBO’s.

Buying at a low fixed interest rate (like I did at 5.63%) unfortunately ties you to your house if the rates rise - since your selling price suffers based on others DTI% limitation.  This is probably as valid a reason as fraud out there right now.  5.63% to 7.0% means 14% loss on the house price.

It’s neither.  Northpark is guard gated, and is bounded by the Toll Road, Culver, Portola and Viewpark.  Northpark Square is not guard gated, but is the area between the toll road, Culver, Irvine Blvd. and Bryan.  This featured neighborhood is West of Bryan, near the new post office and next to I5.  It’s on the wrong side of the Culver to be in Northwood, and it’s in Tustin school district.  Does it have a name?  I’m sure the owners call it something, but from Culver, it just looks like a bunch of condos under the freeway.  Yuck. For close to the same price you can buy in Woodbury, which is much nicer.

Silly’s Mom—- Although I agree with your assessment that this weird little neighborhood does not really fit anywhere, this tract (Mericort) is technically assigned to Northwood in a neighborhood called “Raquet Club Park”.  Tamarisk by William Lyon is also assigned the same neighborhood. See link below for all the Irvine tract codes.

http://www.insidetract.com/city_lists/IR.htm

Thanks IrvineRenter.  I am planning to hop on board Mid 2009-Early 2010, given the fact that we have affordable home that time and things look good on future growth.  I am sure Govt. will try everything in their arsenal to wadeoff downfall, I bet nothing is going to work.  History repeats itself, housing would be least desirable investment as compared to other markets which wil pick up first such as Stocks, etc.  I am sure most investors who speculate will stay out of housing for a long time to hereon.